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Original Sin?
| November 24th, 2015 at 8:17:43 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I can tell you for sure that to have a real personal relationship with Jesus Christ you need to develop a prayer life. That is a real, measurable thing and is the ultimate reason for prayer in the first place. It is not about getting what we want, it is about receiving what we need - God's mercy and unconditional love.
Miracles, verifiable, tested, and vetted happen all the time. They are necessary for the canonization process for saints. These usually occur around a miraculous healing that cannot be explained by doctors or medicine. There are also many Eucharistic miracles that you can still see today. However, I think a faith based on miracles is a faith that is just beginning to grow. A mature faith does not need miracles in the same way they did for example in the Apostolic age. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| November 24th, 2015 at 11:20:57 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
You measure the results of your prayer? Isn't that like measuring the length of a mermaids hair? It's been proven again again and again in scientific studies that prayer is just talking to yourself, yet you're measuring it? Amazing self delusion on display, folks.
This is why I always treat Christians with kid gloves when I'm around them in person. This is loony bin stuff, thinking there are miracles and they can be proven. They used to lock people up for a lot less, but not Christians, of course. They can be certifiable and they're allowed to wander around spewing their blather and we treat them like they aren't really insane. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| November 24th, 2015 at 1:05:08 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
For those who don't understand Archaic Newspeak, here's a translation: "Of course there are miracles! There have to be. But you are not primitive and ignorant enough to require miracles, are you?" Doubleplusgood! Big Jesus is Watching You! Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 24th, 2015 at 1:13:01 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
That has nothing to do with whether or not prayer causes measurable physical changes in the world. It doesn't. people who think they are receiving god's unconditional love are indistinguishable from those who do not, and from those of other religions who are receiving unconditional love from an imaginary god.
that is exactly what I am talking about - miracles attributed after the fact. you might as we be inventing a system to beat baccarat. the bible is full of stories of people SAYING that they could do something miraculous, and then DOING it.
You mean the ones where you can't physically verify that anything has changed, because nothing has physically changed?
That doesn't explain why they happened then and don't happen now. if a mature faith doesn't need miracles, maybe a more mature faith doesn't need god. We don't know why cells become cancerous. We know there are cancer-causing substances and conditions, but we don't know exactly why cells become cancerous. is the only explanation that god causes cancer? especially when you factor in that everything that happens is god's will. I'm sure you've heard that argument before. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| November 24th, 2015 at 6:28:20 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
First of all people from other religions can experience the love and mercy from Christ even if they don't recognize it as coming from Him. God is not limited to only caring for and loving Catholics or Christians. There are many people who through no fault of their own do not know Christ but honestly seek God with a sincere heart. I do believe prayer does cause measurable changes in the world if it is God's will. When I pray for peace in the world I believe that somewhere it is making a difference is someone's heart. You can't measure it or test it and that may be frustrating to someone who thinks nothing can exist that can't be mathematically proven or discovered in a lab. Finally, I think those who receive God's unconditional love are very different in the way they spread that love to others and how they handle the problems and difficulties of life.
I understand what you are saying. It is true I don't know of many instances now a days of someone walking up to a person who can't walk and saying, "In the name of Jesus I say stand up and walk." However, in the Gospels Jesus uses these miracles to show that they are nothing compared to the forgiveness of sins. I can and do say that I will forgive someone's sins and then miraculously through the ministry of my priesthood and the Grace of Jesus Christ I do it. That is pretty awesome.
No, the Eucharist is a miracle that happens at every Mass. I am talking about the many Eucharistic miracles were hosts are preserved for over 500 years, where they actually change into flesh, or when they bleed or something like that. You can definitely see these things still today.
I don't think that follows.
Things like cancer are a symptom of our broken world. God's will is for all to be saved and to live eternally with Him in the Heavenly Kingdom where there is no suffering, pain, or death. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| November 24th, 2015 at 6:30:41 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
How can this be proven in a scientific study?
Isn't life a miracle? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| November 24th, 2015 at 7:00:06 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
You do understand it's all in your head, right? They have proven by testing that nothing changes with the wafer and wine during your silly ceremony. They have exactly the same properties at all times. Maybe you take peyote beforehand, that could explain it. Here's another priest with the truth about the eucharist: If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| November 24th, 2015 at 7:04:45 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
When the rate of people getting well when being prayed for is exactly the same as those not getting prayed for, in studies going back over 100 years, that's pretty much proof that prayer is a waste of time.
I don't know about you, but where I live I'm completely surrounded on all sides by living things. Looks more common than miraculous. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| November 24th, 2015 at 7:24:25 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
If by properties you are referring to the accidents of bread and wine that actually is the teaching in regards to transubstantiation. I'm glad you understand it. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| November 24th, 2015 at 7:30:16 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
These studies in no way show that prayer is a waste of time or that someone who is praying is only talking to themselves. They also incorrectly understand the nature and purpose of prayer. I also always wonder how they do the control on these studies. I think I might be messing up their study when I pray for all the sick of the world.
Maybe its because you don't see anything special about creation that leads to this sad worldview. Life is amazing and the fact that there is something rather than nothing is a miracle of God. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |