Original Sin?

Quote: Face

Can I explain creation? No. Does that then mean that god is a possibility? Technically, I would say yes, and I do in fact hold that view. Doesn't that then make me agnostic? I say no. At least how we define deities, I find it laughable that if some thing, an actual being, created all of this, that we are somehow a very special part of it. That we are the king pin of it. That our existence is at the forefront of this being's concern. That is the hubris EB speaks of, and I could not agree more. That to me is the definition of a deity, and I reject it completely. Therefore, atheist.

Others can have similar ideas, or very different ideas, or no ideas at all, none of which are "of atheism", as atheism is not a thing. It's not that hard to wrap your head around. You don't believe in dragons or unicorns. That lack of belief does not "make" you something, except for perhaps "sane" and "reasonable". It's the same thing.

You keep trying to shove this round peg into a square hole. Stop. It's not a peg. All it is is nothing at all.

Quote: Evenbob

It's not a belief, it's a theory.

Come on now, I consider this type of talk agnostic for sure.

Face, as for the hubris you speak of I think it might be important to recognize I think of God as a Heavenly Father. As I read your excellent posts in the Fishing thread one can see your love for your son come out. Your world in many ways revolves around him. You sacrifice and give up or would do so almost anything to help him, more so than anyone else. Does that mean I should accuse you of hubris in your special care for your son? Why would he be a special part of your life, isn't he no different than me or Bob or even the fish you catch? For me the definition of a deity is a Father and I accept it completely.

Quote: FrGamble

Come on now, I consider this type of talk agnostic for sure.

I can understand that, because agnosticism is often defined as "not saying one way or the other". But that is not my belief. I do say that there is no god. I believe it as fervently as you do Christ. I just have issues with integrity and intellectual honesty. I believe with everything I am there is no god, but I cannot prove it. I cannot know for sure, and I know I cannot know. If I cannot know, then I must accept the possibility that there is. There is no other logical conclusion or stance to take.

An agnostic does not claim faith or disbelief in god. I surely claim disbelief. Therefore, atheist.

Quote: FrG

Face, as for the hubris you speak of I think it might be important to recognize I think of God as a Heavenly Father. As I read your excellent posts in the Fishing thread one can see your love for your son come out. Your world in many ways revolves around him. You sacrifice and give up or would do so almost anything to help him, more so than anyone else. Does that mean I should accuse you of hubris in your special care for your son? Why would he be a special part of your life, isn't he no different than me or Bob or even the fish you catch? For me the definition of a deity is a Father and I accept it completely.

If you want to get down to brass tacks and want me to be as bluntly honest as I can, then yes. I find the majority of those posts you speak of to be a result of a desire to share and enjoy with friends, to teach to those that are interested, but sprinkled in every now and again, there is certainly a bit of "look at me!" Everyone is a bit narcissistic, and I am no different. But I think most would resist using the term "hubris" because, while present, my use of those types of posts or comments are a minority.

The hubris I mentioned is not that. It's not a dollop or a dash sprinkled in an otherwise ordinary post, it is all encompassing. I don't mean to offend, but there's not another way I can view it. And I'm sorry to say, I don't think I can really explain it, because I don't feel you yet understand atheism. I dunno. That's a hard thought that's gonna take a while for me to be able to explain in under 40,000 words, if I can explain at all =/

My point about those posts is that you are not acting with hubris you are acting with love. I think everyone likes those posts and we all probably say, what a good father. It is not narcissistic to be proud of your child. Nor is it weird or wrong for your son to be proud of you and brag about how my daddy can fish and race better than your dad. Why you can't equate this to the Christian understanding of God as "Abba", meaning daddy is why I think you might not understand why I believe as I do.

In regards to understanding atheism, I hate to say it, but now I am a little more confused. With intellectual honesty you can recognize that there can be a God and you accept that possibility. Yet then you go and claim disbelief. Maybe it would be more accurate for you and other agnostic/atheists to say that you find it more probable that there is not a God then that there is a God.

Another term I think we should clarify is the notion of God in the context we are talking about here. You might claim disbelief in the Christian concept of God, and I would be curious why, or the Buddist conception of God, etc. However, with the intellectual idea of God you might even with your claim of disbelief intact be able to say that I do understand the need for God in a philosophical and scientific sense, but I reject a personal God or a God who reveals itself to human beings.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe it would be more accurate for you and other agnostic/atheists .

There are no agnostics, it's a meaningless
term. You either believe in god or you
don't. An agnostic is waiting for evidence
just like an atheist is, there is no difference
between them.

While you are waiting for more evidence what is stopping an atheist from deciding to believe? Also by acknowledging you are awaiting more evidence you are acknowledging that God can indeed exist, which I view as hopeful.

If he is like me, the evidence he is waiting for is the final proof that god does not exist. Until then, you can't eliminate the possibility, even if you sincerely believe with all your heart and have faith that it can't be true.

I think that is the intellecual honesty that he is talking about, and one of the key differences between science and faith.

Quote: Dalex64

If he is like me, the evidence he is waiting for is the final proof that god does not exist. Until then, you can't eliminate the possibility, even if you sincerely believe with all your heart and have faith that it can't be true.

This talk about waiting for final proof is a little confusing. I am still waiting for the first shred of evidence you or anyone might have as to why you would believe that there is no God.

I also like the honesty in your phrase, "if you sincerely believe with all your heart and have faith that it can't be true." It goes back to my statement that atheism seems often like a decision made based on something other than evidence, and more like emotion or desire.

Well, here is one you missed or avoided earlier.

There is no proof that prayer works. You would expect to see some difference in the group of people who are praying to the true god - maybe they would be healthier, longer lived, more prosperous.

Maybe the double blind studies that they have done would show a difference between people who had been prayed for, and people who had not.

The bible says god answers prayers. Science says prayers are not answered. That doesn't say god doesn't exist, but it does say that god doesn't answer prayers when you can tell overall if they work or not. The logical chain that starts to form is - god doesn't answer prayers - the bible is wrong about that - the bible is wrong about god - there is no god.

There is a website out there, called something like "why doesn't god heal amputees" or something like that. It puts forth the position that the only time prayers can be considered "answered" is when there was a possibility that it could have happened on its own, by chance, or in other words would have happened anyway with or without prayer. They are looking for an answered prayer that could only be answered by god, such as restoring limbs to amputees, thus the title of the website.

Athiesm is a decision made based on a lack of proof that god exists, alternate explainations for that which is presented as evidence, disbelief that some of the "evidence" is true because it can't be verified, disbelief of "evidence" because it goes against our understanding of the nature of the universe and how it has been shown to work. It is not a decision based on something other than evidence, it is a decision based on a lack of verifiable and believable evidence.

You want to call it agnostic if you leave the possibility of god just because you can't eliminate the possibility, fine. That shouldn't make you feel any better, though. Just because you leave the possibility open doesn't exclude that the only proof you would believe would need to be strong enough to convince an athiest.

Quote: Dalex64

If he is like me, the evidence he is waiting for is the final proof that god does not exist.

Everyone is going to be fooled.

There WILL be life after death.
It will be an office job.
No big questions will be answered there either.
Just work work work!
Putting square pegs in round holes.

Quote: FrGamble

While you are waiting for more evidence what is stopping an atheist from deciding to believe?

No evidence to base a decision on. Without
evidence, there is no decision to make. An
agnostic is just confused, he's really an atheist.