Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

What I mean is in response to your first two characteristics of this dragon. We know Jesus was a historical person who was seen, documented, and written about. Secondly His impact in the past and still today is very visible, those who have been touched by the fire of His love are noticeably changed.

It was a reference to god not Jesus.

invisible, fire represents powers, won't be tested.

Basically it comes down to "take our word from it" from his advocates. Including Jesus.

All references to the dragon are what anyone should start asking about what one is being asked to believe. None of those questions are unreasonable to ask for verification in all sorts of ways. Basically, there's nothing to examine, or it refuses to be examined.

So, when people consider atheists unreasonable, I say pshaw, we're asking all the questions we should ask about anything. I wouldn't spend a dollar on anything with so little evidence normally, much less something supposedly so important.

If somebody started a religion based on the Big Bang, I'd have the same amount of skepticism once they started proposing things out of the blue that go way beyond what we theorize. So you can propose a god. Harmless as a proposal. Beyond that, you need something more than take my word for it, this god did this or that.

If I need to buy stuff sight unseen/untested/unverifiable, there are all sorts of scams that provide just the same assurances.

Quote: FrGamble

You really are saying that you are without God because you just came to that realization without evidence or facts because it felt right to you.

No. There is no feeling involved at all.
None. There is no evidence and there
are no facts. There's nothing to consider.

I am telling you what you believe, you
bet. God does not exist, so you have
to pretend he does. You're playing a
trick on yourself, for whatever the reason.
We all do it with one thing and another.

Everybody is in denial about something.

Where is god now?
Where are the people performing miracles, like in the book of acts?
What about the fantastic things people did in the old testament? Or were those just stories, even though some of the people in the stories were believed to be real.

Where are the people raising the dead, as they were instructed to do?

Jesus said god will answer our prayers. Why can't we confirm this is true? Apparently about $5 million a year is being spent on this, and so far the only thing they found is that people who knew others were praying for them had slightly WORSE outcomes than those who did not.

The OT and the NT have many stories of people proving that god exists. Now, the only "proof" is to repeat the stories.
Those stories certainly weren't limited to Jesus - his followers repeatedly demonstrated god's power by announcing that they were going to do something miraculous, then doing it. Why doesn't this happen now?

How can the miracle of transubstiantion be called a miracle, when even the church believes that nothing physically changes?

Quote: Dalex64

Where is god now?

Where all gods have always been: in the minds of their followers.

Quote:

Where are the people raising the dead, as they were instructed to do?

You're not supposed to take the word "miracle" literally when it's inconvenient for the church that you do so.

On the other hand they claim everything good is caused by the Jesus.

and on latest developments, remember we're at war with Eastasia. We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Quote: Dalex64

Jesus said god will answer our prayers. Why can't we confirm this is true? Apparently about $5 million a year is being spent on this, and so far the only thing they found is that people who knew others were praying for them had slightly WORSE outcomes than those who did not.

Prayer tests have been going on
since the late 1800's. None of
them have shown any positive
results. A few of the tests in the
late 20th century were massive
and went on for years. The
result was, if a sick person knew
he was being prayed for, he often
did worse than those not being
prayed for at all.

Jesus welched on his promises to
give followers anything they want
in exchange for their devotion.
If he indeed ever promised anything
at all..

Quote: rxwine

It was a reference to god not Jesus.

The incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ then answers at least one of your objections.

Maybe it is just a Catholic thing but I believe that faith, like life, should be examined. The more important something is the more it should be examined which makes the decision to have faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ one of if not the most important thing to examine. However, we also don't want to treat faith or prayer as something that can be tested in a laboratory. If we are talking about the supernatural then we rise above those things that can be observed and tested. This is another problem with your dragon analogy. If you believe in love, which some sadly believe just to be chemical reactions in the brain, you would find yourself in the same dilemma. Important things like philosophical positions, ideas, ideologies, personal perspectives on life cannot be seen but have a huge impact on us and how we live our lives.

Quote:

So, when people consider atheists unreasonable, I say pshaw, we're asking all the questions we should ask about anything. I wouldn't spend a dollar on anything with so little evidence normally, much less something supposedly so important.

Here I see two problems. We are again mixing up what atheism means. I am starting to understand when many people on this forum use the word atheism they don't really mean they don't believe in God, even though that is the easiest way they can explain it. It means more akin to they don't care about the answer to the question "is there a God?" They don't really feel the question is worth examining and have just decided to say there is not a God because that is what they think. I believe that is more akin to an agnostic position. Surprisingly I also think that is a more reasonable and honest position than to declare for certain that there is no God. Once you declare one way or the other on God you open yourself up to the good questions your dragon analogy poses. Theism has better answers than atheism does to all your questions. If you wouldn't spend a dollar on theism you should run very, very far away from atheism.

Quote:

If I need to buy stuff sight unseen/untested/unverifiable, there are all sorts of scams that provide just the same assurances.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote: Evenbob

Jesus welched on his promises to
give followers anything they want
in exchange for their devotion.

Believe me when I say that you could not be more wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

If you believe in love, which some sadly believe just to be chemical reactions in the brain, you would find yourself in the same dilemma. Important things like philosophical positions, ideas, ideologies, personal perspectives on life cannot be seen but have a huge impact on us and how we live our lives.

I agree emotions, ideas, and chemical biochemical influences all are very real seen or not. Because you can find the traces of their existence and workings through experiments, just as you can only sometimes see a shadow of something but not the thing if it is hidden around a corner.

But you argue as if I should assign something extra to the process like a supernatural being. So, not only do I have biochemical reactions of love, I now have to assign something supernatural to it. I agree there are many processes, not just love which need more explanations, but so far further exploration into those processes has lead to real world discovery not myth and spirits.

Quote: FrGamble

I believe that faith, like life, should be examined.

Which you never do. If you did, you
wouldn't keep coming up with same
ridiculous answer. 'Examining' for you
is like taking a comparative religion
class in a Catholic college. It doesn't
really study other religions, it just
finds all the ways they're wrong when
compared to the Church.

Quote:

I am starting to understand when many people on this forum use the word atheism they don't really mean they don't believe in God

God fails the smell test. If there's no
evidence for something, and there
can be no evidence for something
that doesn't exist, only a fool would
waste his time with more useless
investigation. You so desperately want
confirmation that you aren't indeed
wasting your time, that you can't rest
even knowing real atheists exist. Because
you know they might be right.

Quote: FrGamble

Believe me when I say that you could not be more wrong.

Believe me when I say you have no
evidence that even one prayer has
ever been answered by a deity. A
prayer looks like it's been answered
because of random events and you
all jump for joy. Self delusion on
parade.