Original Sin?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_God%27s_existence

Point/counter-point paragraphs of much of the same things we have been talking about here.
Rational, cogent explainations about why athiests and agnostics don't believe what they don't believe.
Specifically, the complexity argument, first cause, perfect laws of the universe, and lack of corroboration of the anecdocal stories in the bible.

I'm on retreat and can't look up your links right now, nor craft a response but it does my soul good to see some people really looking at this questions and wrestling with both sides. Keep questioning and keep an open mind and the truth will come.

Quote: FrGamble

Keep questioning and keep an open mind and the truth will come.

Exactly how I eventually stopping sitting in the pew every week.

Quote: FrGamble

Keep questioning and keep an open mind and the truth will come.

How come it hasn't come to you yet.
It's because you do no questioning,
ever. You've been spoon fed the answers,
why would you ever question anything.

Quote: Evenbob

For the umpteenth time I will tell you
that none of that is evidence of a god.

Could you maybe be more specific about discounting some of the evidence. For example why is the impossibility of an actual infinite regress not evidence that there must be a first cause? How about the general consensus of modern cosmologists that the universe does have a beginning? How about the personal experiences of any number of good, intelligent people with the existence of the supernatural? Surely you don't deny the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth and his impact on humanity? Why specifically is none of this evidence?

Quote:

As far as evidence of no god, we just
went thru that a few posts ago. Please
go and re-read them.

We did and I showed with the help of someone who linked to it that the atheist argument is often from ignorance. If there is no evidence for God therefore there is no God. That is illogical and doesn't follow. Care to address that?

Quote: Evenbob

How come it hasn't come to you yet.
It's because you do no questioning,
ever. You've been spoon fed the answers,
why would you ever question anything.

I question everything! It is beyond important to me to follow the truth wherever it leads. I can't really respond to these attacks against my character so why don't we stick to the debate at hand and not fall into ad hominem attacks, please.

Quote: rxwine

I still await evidence there is no other killer of OJs Simpson's wife?

Imagine being able to use that all the time in the courtroom? Sure would throw a major wrench in the justice system.

That is true rxwine and thank God we don't live in a courtroom. Imagine for a second if everything we decided on and believed in our daily life had to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt? Faith is not a mathematical formula or a smoking gun. It is the rational decision to believe in something after looking at the convergence of many things that point in a certain direction. It is looking at evidence, reason, what moves our hearts, what answers our deepest questions and longings, what makes us better, and what makes sense. It is my contention that atheism answers nothing and has no evidence behind it. I would be happy to hear why atheism is reasonable, what big questions it answers, how it moves one's heart or makes someone or society better, or how it makes any sense at all. I have never heard anything of the sort in regards to atheism.

Belief in God not only makes sense it is a decision made with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. This is the same process we use to fall in love and just because you can't prove it in a courtroom or on a chalkboard does not mean it is not true.

Quote: FrGamble

It is the rational decision to believe in something after looking at the convergence of many things that point in a certain direction. It is looking at evidence, reason, what moves our hearts, what answers our deepest questions and longings, what makes us better, and what makes sense.

See? You do understand atheism, after all =)

Quote: FrG

It is my contention that atheism answers nothing and has no evidence behind it. I would be happy to hear why atheism is reasonable, what big questions it answers, how it moves one's heart or makes someone or society better, or how it makes any sense at all. I have never heard anything of the sort in regards to atheism.

Belief in God not only makes sense it is a decision made with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. This is the same process we use to fall in love and just because you can't prove it in a courtroom or on a chalkboard does not mean it is not true.

This, plus your repeated reference to it as an "ideology", shows me you still don't get it.

It is not a "thing". There's no dogma or rules, certainly no ideology. It's a simple statement of one belief - "I do not believe in god(s)". Whatever so happens after that point is not atheism. I believe that everything is nature-based. That is not atheism. EB is an atheist; he believes in reincarnation. That's not a separate denomination of atheism, or an offshoot of atheism, or anything to do with atheism at all.

Magic. There are mages and wizards and warlocks, practicing white and black and blue magic. Geomancers and necromancers and pyromancers. Summoners call spirits from the beyond. Soothsayers see into the future. A whole society of people mixing potions and mumbling incantations. You look at this and you say "Pah, rubbish". The fact that you turn from it does not "make you something". You aren't automatically forced into a group in which you must follow screed and scripture. You may choose to do so, and you have with Catholicism. But that's a "thing". Atheism is a "no thing". It's really "nothing", nothing but one statement - "I do not believe in god(s)."

What does it answer? Well, nothing. It's not supposed to. It can't, it's not a "thing". The only thing it can answer is one question - Do I believe in god(s). And it gives the only answer it can - "No."

Quote: FrGamble

That is true rxwine and thank God we don't live in a courtroom. Imagine for a second if everything we decided on and believed in our daily life had to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt? Faith is not a mathematical formula or a smoking gun. It is the rational decision to believe in something after looking at the convergence of many things that point in a certain direction. It is looking at evidence, reason, what moves our hearts, what answers our deepest questions and longings, what makes us better, and what makes sense. It is my contention that atheism answers nothing and has no evidence behind it. I would be happy to hear why atheism is reasonable, what big questions it answers, how it moves one's heart or makes someone or society better, or how it makes any sense at all. I have never heard anything of the sort in regards to atheism.

Belief in God not only makes sense it is a decision made with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. This is the same process we use to fall in love and just because you can't prove it in a courtroom or on a chalkboard does not mean it is not true.

Love exists in the lab just as much as certain elements of religious experience exist in the lab.

However no experiments produce the conclusion of a cupid, or a god and none is needed. Don't confuse biochemical changes and real measurements of things as proof of supernatural concepts. I guarantee you if a fake but real looking policeman shows up at your home tonight and tells you a love one has died in an accident, you will experience loss and grief as much as it really happened.

An experiment where a male test subject doesn't see the questioner, but believes the questioner's hand touching them occasionally on the leg registers completely differently if they believe the hand belongs to a man or woman. You can measure the effect of what they believe but that has nothing to do with the reality when they are being fooled by a hidden questioner.

So if you told me all the things associated with religion are real in the sense having strong effects on you, I'd agree with you. Doesn't mean bupkis. It's not proof of a god. It's proof of reactions to certain kind of stimulus.

I think you completely missed the absurd idea of demanding proof that something doesn't exist. It's not a reasoned request out of the courtroom either. I thought maybe the courtroom example would set the light bulb off in your head.

Quote: Face

This, plus your repeated reference to it as an "ideology", shows me you still don't get it.

"When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Someone or other.

I hear Face and EB saying that atheism is a "no-thing". It is not based on evidence. It sounds like a decision that is made based on one's free will to say boldly, "I do not believe in god(s)." Am I to understand then that this decision is based on desire, emotions, or just a pure act of the will to decide in one way or the other regardless of evidence or lack thereof? In this way atheism seems like a very personal decision a philosophy or world vision of sorts. Maybe it is based on the experience of evil or the suffering of life or just the lack of supernatural experiences. Anyway if this is really your position I fail to see how or why EB at least continues to claim that theism is wrong because of what he sees as a lack of evidence? Based on this definition of atheism and what I see as a faulty view of theism it would all just boil down to a difference of opinions where no one could malign the other for thinking one way or the other.

Rxwine, I can't really tell but I think you seem to be saying that love and by analogy the existence of God might just be a trick of the senses. Are you saying that life gives the impression that there is a God but that does not make it true?

I continue to hold that making the positive statement that there is no God carries with a burden of proof. In a courtroom if you were to establish a alibi as to why God was not there you would have to demonstrate why or how He was not. You could say that you don't know or plead no contest, but that would be an agnostic position, not an atheistic one.