 |
 |
Original Sin?
| October 23rd, 2015 at 8:48:19 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
You are thinking about this wrong. It is a logical contradiction to think that something that begins to exist did not have a creator. For anything that is contingent, meaning it depends of something else for its existence, it was obviously and logically created. All material things are contingent and at some point began to exist. This requires a non-contingent being who is truly eternal and holds existence it itself, this we commonly call God. There was no time before God. God never began to exist but has always been and everything that is created can be traced back to this eternal, all-powerful, spiritual reality. I know this can be hard to grasp, but it is the only answer to the important question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Eternal contingent material beings, for example "turtles all the way down" is nonsense. There has to be something at the beginning, a non-turtle who has always existed and created the first turtle and began everything in our universe. Note well that you were correct earlier, kind-of, when you mentioned this argument only proves God's existence it says precious little about who or what this God is. God in this argument has to monotheistic, but could also be an impersonal force. To know anything more about God besides it's existence requires revelation on the part of God. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| October 23rd, 2015 at 9:14:42 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Careful. You may be letting yourself in for a deep misunderstanding of causes and the Big Bang Theory (the theory, not the show). Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| October 23rd, 2015 at 9:49:51 AM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
It doesn't prove God's existence, rather it reveals quite clearly that if you can be wrong about one part of your theory, that you can be wrong about any part of your theory. It has been demonstrated over and over again that that the source book of truth for your religion, the Bible, is wrong about the creation of the universe, and when it was written there was no way to get any of the evidence to support the stories that were written. Your entire religion is based on Jesus being the son of your God, not some impersonal force. If God is an impersonal force, none of the stories in the OT showing God to be quite a personal force can be true, and all of the stories attributing Our God to be a Loving God can not be true, and your entire religion collapses. I understand that you have to believe that your God has to be as you believe him to be. But what makes you right, and every other religion wrong? We are right back to the circular argument that says Because The Bible Says So. I imagine that attributing the creation of the universe to an impersonal force won't be good enough for you. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| October 23rd, 2015 at 11:29:08 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
No, the evidence for your theory is all around us. The evidence that your theory is correct is completely lacking. That being the case, you just assume the theory is correct and go from there. That's the very basis of tried and true superstition. Assume your faulty theory is correct, ignore the lack of any real evidence to support it, and you end up burning witches at the stake, believing the Devil is behind everything bad that happens in your life, and that some man died for your sins against a god you can't even prove exists. Some of us demand more from a religion, like real evidence, not faulty theories. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| October 23rd, 2015 at 12:55:47 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
I've heard the argument before. It also reveals Christians don't understand what the Big Bang is. See, looking back in time the best we can do is a fraction of a second after the Big Bang, and that mostly by applying theory to observations, not with direct observations. The Big Bang is often taken to be the beginning of the universe, but that is a mere unsupported assumption. If we know nothing else, we know there was something which underwent a rapid and violent expansion. This gets called all sorts of things like cosmic egg, primordial atom, and so on, but undeniably it was there at the moment of the Big Bang. We do NOT see or deduce all energy and matter suddenly come into being, but rather all energy and matter suddenly react to the expanding space, combining and forming structures right off the bat. However one looks at it, something existed before the Big Bang happened. therefore the universe did not begin at the Big Bang, but before the Big Bang. It's literally a wonderful universe we live in. No gods required. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| October 23rd, 2015 at 9:49:16 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
This is wrong on so many levels. First of all the Bible is not the source book of truth for my religion. The Bible arose from a living tradition and was inspired by God. It is not a science textbook as is obvious from the very first chapters giving two different stories of how creation came to be. The Bible gives us spiritual truths, such as the creation of all things by God, and does not worry about providing the scientific answers we wrongly assume can help us with these BIG questions. Anyone who would claim that science could ever talk about what happened before the creation of all energy and matter has a mistaken view of the role and purpose of science. How could a method that depends on observable and testable data possibly speak about or observe something if it was before anything existed besides the creator? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| October 23rd, 2015 at 10:02:27 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
It couldn't, if there was a creator. But there isn't, so what you're stating has no meaning. The false premise that you must be seeing a creation, so there must be a creator, taints all your thinking into making decisions that end up being dead end roads. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| October 24th, 2015 at 6:32:48 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
What is false about that premise? Everything that begins to exist has a cause. I don't see what is wrong with that statement. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| October 24th, 2015 at 6:42:49 AM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
Mistake #1 - you are assuming nothing existed before the big bang. I'm not going to enumerate the rest. People do believe that the bible is literal truth, the earth was created 5000 years ago, etc, man was literally created, and use the bible as a source of scientific truth. Most people now believe, I think, that not everything in the bible is literally true. I'm not sure how they reconcile this with the earth being on four pillars and the edges guarded by sea monsters. The biggest problem I have is this shifting of opinion between what is true and what is just a story. But I think it is safe to say that the number of things in the bible that are considered to be literally true and factually accurate has been decreasing since the days that it was written. Again, if there was a creator, how do you know it was your God? The evidence in the bible supports your God coming in after the fact - revealing himself to the Hebrews, telling them not to worship other gods, delivering 10 commandments, and then later 'inspiring' the word of God to be written the way he wanted, saying he started it all and was here all along. It is all documented right there. Before that, God wasn't here. Zeus and Odin and Horus were. Whether or not there was a creator before creation, what form the creation took, the time and place it occured, and the nature of the creator or creators is an invention of the human mind, in fact many human minds, throughout the ages. I keep coming back to: what makes your version correct? In other words, disprove Zeus, Odin, Horus, Vishnu, the Flying Spagetti Monster, etc. It is a Sherlock Holmes challenge - once all of the other possibilities have been eliminated, the one that remains must be the truth. The rub of that is knowing that you know all of the possibilities, and can disprove all but one. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| October 24th, 2015 at 6:59:32 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
This is not a mistake or an assumption. For anything to begin to exist there must be a being/force/God that is non-contingent and eternal. This is the first cause. Think of it as a very long train, no matter how long that train is and how many "big bangs" there are you eventually have to get to an engine or the train will simply not move. The fact that there must have been a creator or cause of all that exists is self-evident using logic and reason.
In the beginning and till the very end there was God. What you mean by God wasn't there is that He was hidden and unrevealed. He was present like sparks through stubble in the creations of gods like Zeus, etc.
I don't know if disproving all of these other things is the way to go. Especially because outside of the FSM they could very well lead one to the truth of Jesus Christ. The challenge is to look at these various religions and ask the questions concerning what do they teach us about mankind, who we are and why we are here? What moral teachings do they inspire and ways of living? Do they benefit society and build culture and civilization? Do they elevate us and motivate us to be better human beings to treat our world and others with the respect they deserve? It is only logical and a fact that only one is true, but that doesn't diminish the fact that many religions do lead to goodness, meaning and purpose and benefit all of humanity. It is my conclusion that Christianity is the truth and answers these questions better and more completely than any other religion or philosophy could. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |