Original Sin?

Flaws

Pride. That is a big one. First of all you believe there are no flaws in the teaching, and that there can not be.

Mysogeny. Women are held in a separate and unequal position. You talked about their leadership position among other women - where they are locked away from view, not allowed into the same part of the church as men, and in some cases expected to take a vow of silence so they are never heard at all.

Pride again. You believe you are right, and there is no doubt that you could be wrong.

Conversion. Changing the beliefs of others to conform with your views.

Rigidity - inflexibility - unwilling or unable to change or adapt

Pride - you don't need to change, society needs to change.

So, the #1 flaw is pride.

Pride does come before the fall, but I think it is misplaced on me or anyone who believes strongly in something. You seem to believe strongly that it is wrong to think you are right, to doubt one could be wrong, or to not change. Does that mean you are prideful?

Are you saying it is impossible to know truth or that it is wrong to think you have discovered it? I don't think that is pride, in many ways you must be humble enough to admit that I can't figure this out on my own. Truth is not of my own making, it is discovered as a real thing, it is taught, and handed down - not created by us.

So really the only "flaw" you mentioned was mysogeny. Here you mistake different roles for inequality and you also pull out of the hat some strange ridiculous examples that are totally unfamiliar to me. God created them men and women, equal in every respect. They are different with various gifts and a beautiful complementarity. This has always and will always be the Church's teaching.

Opps, I noticed you said rigidity. I think the Church is very willing to change and adapt. See the counter-reformation, Vatican II, and the New Evangelization. Or just look at Pope Francis.

In regards to conversion, I don't see how that is a "flaw". It would be a flaw if a religion that really benefits someone and is great is kept a secret and not shared. If you love something or someone don't you want others to share in it?

Quote: FrGamble

God created them men and women, equal in every respect. They are different with various gifts and a beautiful complementarity. This has always and will always be the Church's teaching.

I love this! I wait for it, for the Church
to talk out both sides of it's mouth
at once. This is what Jim Crow was all
about, saying one thing and meaning
another. Sure, you Black people, under
the law you're equal in every way to
Whites. You just can't go to White
schools, or use White drinking fountains
or restrooms or restaurants.

Sure, women of the Catholic church, you
are equal to the men in every respect (one
side of the mouth says). You just can't
be ordained or hold any kind of important
office, that's for men only (the other side
the mouth contradicts itself). Nothing we
can do, women, Jesus structured it that
way. (he really didn't but we knew he would
have, so we did it for him)

Hypocrisy is so much fun..

The view on women is your version of a caste system. Your men tell your women what they can and can not do, and what is expected of them. There are things that women can not choose to do, or should not choose to do, because they are women.

Another flaw, which I almost don't want to mention because I'm worried about upsetting you with this one, is the "get out of hell free" card that is "God forgives all sins". This concept has been abused by both the church and its members, masking or distorting the message of universal forgiveness.

Another flaw, which I know that you will strongly disagree with, is that we are all born with sin. You can explain and justify this any way you like, but from an outsider's perspective I can see how easy it would be to agree with EvenBob about the things he has said about this form of sin and what he thinks its true purpose is.

You mentioned that the hindu belief in reincarnation led to the caste system, well I would rank this feature of the church right up there with it.

I will have to do some reading on Hinduism before I try to dispute your assertion on their caste system, but it seems to me that the caste system is hereditary, but what caste you will be born into in the next life has to do with your actions in this one.

So, these are some things I see as flaws in the church's beliefs and teachings, and I think they interfere with the church's ability to deliver their message and shape society into a form that they like.

Back to pride.

Some other religions have just as much evidence that they are right as you do that you are right.

So in this case, yes I think it is prideful to believe you are right, because neither of you can hold your evidence above the other. Both are non-falsifiable. Both usually have historical records that contradict the other.


Why is it prideful of me not to believe in either of them?

Quote: Dalex64

Why is it prideful of me not to believe in either of them?

I've never understood this obsession Christians
have with pride. The Amish carry it to a ridiculous
degree, they don't have zippers because they
show pride. They do? They all wear the same
outfits so they won't stand out and be prideful
about it.

So what, I feel pride all the time. It's make you
strive to do better, to feel good about yourself.
Is your house or your room a mess? Get a
little pride and you'll take care of yourself better.

Yeah, but that isn't the kind of pride I am talking about. That is feel-good pride, the kind you get for a job well done.

The pride I am talking about is the "too proud to admit you are wrong" kind.

The Amish I think fear a slippery slope of showing your pride, prideful things, then being too proud to see your own faults.

Quote: Dalex64

The view on women is your version of a caste system. Your men tell your women what they can and can not do, and what is expected of them. There are things that women can not choose to do, or should not choose to do, because they are women.

Again it sounds like your argument boils down to women don't have the same roles as men. Nobody tells a woman she can't be a father or a man that he can't be mother. There are things you cannot choose to do, because of your gender. I don't see how this is treating women or men unfairly. I reiterate the constant teaching of the Church which is that men and women are equal. The Church proclaims the greatest human being who has ever lived was a woman named Mary and who has celebrated Jesus' many women followers who were the first witnesses of the Resurrection.

Quote:

Another flaw, which I almost don't want to mention because I'm worried about upsetting you with this one, is the "get out of hell free" card that is "God forgives all sins". This concept has been abused by both the church and its members, masking or distorting the message of universal forgiveness.

The abuse of something distorts or masks the truth but does not destroy it.

Quote:

Another flaw, which I know that you will strongly disagree with, is that we are all born with sin.

Here we encounter misinformation. The teaching of Original Sin is more a recognition that we are all made to be perfect with God in paradise, yet something wounds and weakens us as human beings. We are not all born with personal sin, yet we inherit a tendency to selfishness and a view of God as a judge and not a loving father. If you can find a better explanation for recognizing the amazing awesomeness and potential of human beings and at the same time seeing how helpless we are to do what we want to do and how susceptible we are to temptations and pride, I would be happy to hear it.

Quote:

You mentioned that the hindu belief in reincarnation led to the caste system, well I would rank this feature of the church right up there with it.

I'm curious as to why you say this. What is so distasteful in saying that human beings need help and that we often fail in doing the things we want to do including being nice, kind, generous, and loving to each other?

Quote:

So, these are some things I see as flaws in the church's beliefs and teachings, and I think they interfere with the church's ability to deliver their message and shape society into a form that they like.

I really must say it is refreshing to hear such well articulated challenges to the faith. Thank you and I look forward to keeping the discussion going if you have any other perceived flaws.

Quote: Dalex64

Back to pride.

Some other religions have just as much evidence that they are right as you do that you are right.

So in this case, yes I think it is prideful to believe you are right, because neither of you can hold your evidence above the other. Both are non-falsifiable. Both usually have historical records that contradict the other.


Why is it prideful of me not to believe in either of them?

I don't think the evidence for religions being true is non-falsifiable. We can rationally look at the beauty of the teachings of Christ and His Church and show that they are true or that they resonate with the human spirit. I think your misinterpretation of the doctrine of Original Sin above is a good example of this. If we believed that we were all a bunch of garbage that wouldn't inspire or ring true with people would it? However, if we felt somehow that we were made for more in this world and this moves our hearts to struggle with doing what we know is right then this gives us a picture of humanity and the Church's teaching.