Black Lies Matter

September 24th, 2020 at 8:17:58 AM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Do people only have a selective right to defend their property now?

Like, the guy's supposed to wake up from a dead sleep and be able to immediately determine that the intruders are police and he shouldn't shoot at them?

If it's me and there are a bunch of people rushing through my place that shouldn't be there; I'm just shooting. Don't necessarily suspect I have time to ask them to identify themselves and I also wouldn't want to give away my position.

Good gravy, if I wake up from a dead sleep, I'm lucky just to not miss the toilet.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
September 24th, 2020 at 8:45:37 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
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Posts: 3687
Quote: Mission146
Do people only have a selective right to defend their property now?

Like, the guy's supposed to wake up from a dead sleep and be able to immediately determine that the intruders are police and he shouldn't shoot at them?

If it's me and there are a bunch of people rushing through my place that shouldn't be there; I'm just shooting. Don't necessarily suspect I have time to ask them to identify themselves and I also wouldn't want to give away my position.

Good gravy, if I wake up from a dead sleep, I'm lucky just to not miss the toilet.


That's what I was wondering.

There seems to be a set of people, the same people, who think the police should be able to break into a home unannounced (either no-knock, or "token" knock) while simultaneously holding the belief that they should be able to shoot anyone trying to enter their home because in a matter of life or death you don't have time to ask questions.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
September 24th, 2020 at 9:13:38 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
I haven’t heard a description from the jurors. For instance, did they feel it deserved a different ruling, but they just couldn’t get there under the instructions given?
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
September 24th, 2020 at 9:20:41 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
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Quote: rxwine
I haven’t heard a description from the jurors. For instance, did they feel it deserved a different ruling, but they just couldn’t get there under the instructions given?


Being a Grand Jury you will probably hear nothing from the jurors. They were not voting on guilt, just if there should even be a charge. The charge must have been on very shaky legal ground.
The President is a fink.
September 24th, 2020 at 9:31:46 AM permalink
JCW09
Member since: Aug 27, 2018
Threads: 12
Posts: 847
Quote: Mission146
Do people only have a selective right to defend their property now?

You always have a right to defend yourself from a deadly threat to your person.
Defending property with deadly force is limited to a smaller number of states.
Generally the "castle doctrine" allows you to assume that someone illegally entering your home is a deadly threat.
The key provision there is 'illegally' entering your home.
Quote: Mission146
Like, the guy's supposed to wake up from a dead sleep and be able to immediately determine that the intruders are police and he shouldn't shoot at them?

If you are going to pull the trigger, you damn well better know who you are shooting at.
That is not a hard concept, you can't just shoot anyone in your house until you know they legally shouldn't be there.
That's a tough spot for Breonna's boyfriend to be in, but retreat to the bedroom would have been the correct play.
Instead he decided to shoot indiscriminately down a dark hallway having no idea who was there.
The cause and effect is the police officers are going to return fire.
The police officers had a legal right to enter the home based on the issuance of the warrant.
Shooting at them has no legal basis.
Yes, you need to wait to pull the trigger until you identify them as illegally entering the home.
Quote: Mission146
Good gravy, if I wake up from a dead sleep, I'm lucky just to not miss the toilet.

Then I recommend you don't have a firearm on your night stand
If you do have one, a hand held flashlight or pistol mounted light is a must have companion item
And then take a training class on "low level light" scenarios.
You have a right to own a firearm, but a responsibility to train as well.
Def. of Liar - "A Person Who Tells Lies" / "I lied. Deal with it" - ams288
September 24th, 2020 at 9:39:33 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Quote: JCW09

The police officers had a legal right to enter the home based on the issuance of the warrant


Don’t know if this is correct, but I heard the warrant was based on 1 incident months earlier where a known drug dealer was seen coming out of the house with a USPS package.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
September 24th, 2020 at 9:45:44 AM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
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Quote: JCW09
You always have a right to defend yourself from a deadly threat to your person.
Defending property with deadly force is limited to a smaller number of states.
Generally the "castle doctrine" allows you to assume that someone illegally entering your home is a deadly threat.
The key provision there is 'illegally' entering your home.


I totally get that, but if the couple is not normally engaged (or at all) in criminal activity, then why should they suspect that it is the cops busting into their home? If you live in a relatively unsafe neighborhood or city, one would think the assumption is going to be that someone is breaking in.

Whereas, if I'm actively dealing drugs, (I don't deal or use drugs, ftr) then I may well be inclined to assume it's the cops if they bust into my place.

Quote:
If you are going to pull the trigger, you damn well better know who you are shooting at.
That is not a hard concept, you can't just shoot anyone in your house until you know they legally shouldn't be there.
That's a tough spot for Breonna's boyfriend to be in, but retreat to the bedroom would have been the correct play.
Instead he decided to shoot indiscriminately down a dark hallway having no idea who was there.
The cause and effect is the police officers are going to return fire.
The police officers had a legal right to enter the home based on the issuance of the warrant.
Shooting at them has no legal basis.
Yes, you need to wait to pull the trigger until you identify them as illegally entering the home.


I tend to disagree. If someone is busting into my house that I don't think should be there, then I just want the advantage of being the first one shooting. Not even because I think I'll win (depending how many there are), but because nobody wants to get shot, so maybe they'll run away.

Your second point gets back to why would someone make any assumption except the people should not legally be there? If you're not doing any kind of criminal activity, then you don't expect that the cops are just going to bust into your place in the middle of the night.

I agree with the rest of what you said, except the very last line. I agree with the cause-and-effect part. The boyfriend basically just acted as I would sort of expect a person to act in that situation.

It's all cause-and-effect, though. If they don't go busting into the house in the middle of the night, then he probably doesn't shoot at them.

Quote:
Then I recommend you don't have a firearm on your night stand
If you do have one, a hand held flashlight or pistol mounted light is a must have companion item
And then take a training class on "low level light" scenarios.
You have a right to own a firearm, but a responsibility to train as well.


Yeah, screw the flashlight, gives away my position. I can shoot at chest level just fine in the dark.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
September 24th, 2020 at 9:57:58 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Do people normally train low light scenarios from a dead sleep? If I know I’m in a training situation even my sleep wouldn’t be an accurate replication of the experience at home. And at home, I don’t sleep well with even the expectation of an phone call, much less people breaking down the door.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
September 24th, 2020 at 10:31:20 AM permalink
JCW09
Member since: Aug 27, 2018
Threads: 12
Posts: 847
Quote: rxwine
Don’t know if this is correct, but I heard the warrant was based on 1 incident months earlier where a known drug dealer was seen coming out of the house with a USPS package.

The search warrants were issued
You can argue whether or not they should have been issued, but they were
I suspect that the $12M Louisville settlement means the City doesn't feel great about them with 20/20 hindsight
But that night, the officers were legally allowed to enter the home. Full Stop.
You can argue about the legality of the issuance in court after the fact.
Doesn't give you the excuse to blindly fire a shot down a dark hallway at someone you can't identify.
Def. of Liar - "A Person Who Tells Lies" / "I lied. Deal with it" - ams288
September 24th, 2020 at 10:38:39 AM permalink
JCW09
Member since: Aug 27, 2018
Threads: 12
Posts: 847
Quote: Mission146
Yeah, screw the flashlight, gives away my position. I can shoot at chest level just fine in the dark.

And as a firearms owner, you know the Four Cardinal Rules of Firearms Safety.
Look them up, generally #3 or #4 on the various lists is "to be sure/identify/know your target and what is in front and behind it."
When bad things happen with firearms, you can be sure someone violated one of the four rules.
Breonna Taylor's boyfriend violated one of the four and it got her killed.
Def. of Liar - "A Person Who Tells Lies" / "I lied. Deal with it" - ams288