The City on Fire

Quote: Gandler

And, that is where I disagree. I care about what other countries do. Not just because I like to travel (which I would argue, on its own, is a logical reason).

But more importantly, because I care about other people:

Yeah, so I do I, but until this country is nothing short of perfect, unless we are being attacked, we shouldn't be trying to effectuate anything in other countries because it's none of our business. Also, I have no desire to travel to foreign countries and probably never will, certainly never have, so it doesn't matter to me. I can read about them, which is just as good as going there. Even in this country, I don't particularly care much about places because architecture is of no interest to me and I tend to hate people pretty equally...though I think all should have the same rights under the law and elsewhere. I guess I hate many Christians a little bit more than I hate other people.

Yeah, I know, blood donation...soup kitchen volunteering...helping out neighbors with random stuff. I'm not perfect, okay. I get a little weak when I get to know people on a personal level or actually see suffering, but that's also the only level where I'd ever make any real attempt to change anything---aside from bothering to vote.

Quote:

For one I am appalled that homosexuals are still being executed in 2020 by governments. I care about the rights of people living abroad. I believe America has a role to prevent human rights violations from happening in other countries. I care when governments put out death orders for people for publishing a rather bland book (look up Salman Rushdie in the 80s). I care when women are not allowed to be educated. I care about many other issues that can go on for pages, that the Islamic world denies (often with violence) from its citizens.

If they aren't in the United States, I don't care at all. Other countries are none of our business until ZERO human rights violations happen here. Tend to your own house.

Quote:

And, when I say denies with violence, I don't mean in America the kind of "violence" you get from the government not paying your taxes (because I suspect that will be your response) where you get a summons and told to come to court. I mean being thrown in a prison and hung or beheaded kind of violence.

If it's not happening here, I don't care.

Quote:

Liberals here constantly make a case for abortion rights, education opportunity, gay rights, freedom of speech (rightfully so). None of these exist in the Islamic World, and in many cases are prevented with violence. Do you really think there are "no gays" in Iran as the President has claimed? Or do you think they kill enough that no sane person would ever come out of the closet? But, apart from myself, very few liberals are willing to be critical of Islam (which is about as unliberal as it gets).

If the failure of those rights to exist is not the case here, I don't care.

Quote:

America has a duty to push for progress in the world. Yes, we need to continue to push for human rights domestically. But, there are countries that have policies that Western world has not had for centuries, and its just the norm, that need to be modernized. I believe in social progress worldwide with America leading the charge.

No, we have no such duty, because it's not our country and not our business. Our country also sucks and we should fix that first. Maybe after that we can consider what we might do to help abroad.

Quote:

Yes, we have silly Christians who say stupid things. They are not killing people for their sexual orientation.... They are not prohibiting women from going to public schools. And, when they do get out of line such as preventing medical care or vaccines ("Christian Scientists") for their children, the government rightfully steps in. We live in a secular county where the government acts as the balancing force against religions when they get too out of hand, but for the most part we respect people to believe whatever nonsense they want.

Yes, because the country would be better off without them and that's what I care about. The only reason that they don't do the things you said, at least not in any sanctioned way, is because we have advanced enough that they can not do those things. It's not that none of them wouldn't if they could.

Quote: Mission146

Yeah, so I do I, but until this country is nothing short of perfect, unless we are being attacked, we shouldn't be trying to effectuate anything in other countries because it's none of our business. Also, I have no desire to travel to foreign countries and probably never will, certainly never have, so it doesn't matter to me. I can read about them, which is just as good as going there. Even in this country, I don't particularly care much about places because architecture is of no interest to me and I tend to hate people pretty equally...though I think all should have the same rights under the law and elsewhere. I guess I hate many Christians a little bit more than I hate other people.

Yeah, I know, blood donation...soup kitchen volunteering...helping out neighbors with random stuff. I'm not perfect, okay. I get a little weak when I get to know people on a personal level or actually see suffering, but that's also the only level where I'd ever make any real attempt to change anything---aside from bothering to vote.



If they aren't in the United States, I don't care at all. Other countries are none of our business until ZERO human rights violations happen here. Tend to your own house.



If it's not happening here, I don't care.



If the failure of those rights to exist is not the case here, I don't care.



No, we have no such duty, because it's not our country and not our business. Our country also sucks and we should fix that first. Maybe after that we can consider what we might do to help abroad.



Yes, because the country would be better off without them and that's what I care about. The only reason that they don't do the things you said, at least not in any sanctioned way, is because we have advanced enough that they can not do those things. It's not that none of them wouldn't if they could.

I don't agree. Our country is far from perfect. There is much progress that needs to be pushed for here that other Western Countries have (universal healthcare, better social safety nets). All of that being said, we can fight for these issues domestically while trying to make the world a better place.

America has some small issues. And, there are some policies that we still need.
However, countries that routinely execute homosexuals and atheists have major issues.

The idea that America cannot have a role in international affairs until it is 100% perfect (which will never happen in any country) is not a fair burden.


That is the same logic as "Well my neighbor is routinely drugging and rapping women, but my yard is not clean so I don't have the moral ability to intervene."
There are scales of danger. Countries routinely executing people for sexual orientation or religious views are far more problematic than a country with an outdated Health Care system....

Quote: Gandler

I don't agree. Our country is far from perfect. There is much progress that needs to be pushed for here that other Western Countries have (universal healthcare, better social safety nets). All of that being said, we can fight for these issues domestically while trying to make the world a better place.

I disagree with the Federal Government having any involvement in either of those things. In general, I don't oppose those things as long as there is a supportive tax structure that people in a given state are more-or-less on board with.

Quote:

America has some small issues. And, there are some policies that we still need.
However, countries that routinely execute homosexuals and atheists have major issues.

They do, but their problems are not ours. Once we solve ours, then we can maybe start talking about working on theirs.

Quote:

The idea that America cannot have a role in international affairs until it is 100% perfect (which will never happen in any country) is not a fair burden.

Why not? I am also not saying, "Can not," I'm saying, "Should not." It's not for us to make every place in the world in the image of America.

Quote:

That is the same logic as "Well my neighbor is routinely drugging and rapping women, but my yard is not clean so I don't have the moral ability to intervene."
There are scales of danger. Countries routinely executing people for sexual orientation or religious views are far more problematic than a country with an outdated Health Care system....

It's not really a moral question, but rather a societal one. I mean, if you want to do the whole New World Order-One Nation Earth thing, that's fine, and you're perfectly free to advocate for such a model. I'm just personally opposed to it.

I should also mention I'm speaking in a Governmental/Militaristic sense of the question. If not-for-profit entities, charities or activists want to get together and go over and do something, that's fine.

Quote: Gandler

Liberals here constantly make a case for abortion rights, education opportunity, gay rights, freedom of speech (rightfully so). None of these exist in the Islamic World, and in many cases are prevented with violence. Do you really think there are "no gays" in Iran as the President has claimed? Or do you think they kill enough that no sane person would ever come out of the closet? But, apart from myself, very few liberals are willing to be critical of Islam (which is about as unliberal as it gets).

The rightwing will insist that it's okay to attack bad individuals when it's Christians, but is not happy if we don't lump every Muslim in with barbarity.

Christians won't clean up their Bible and remove passage of Leviticus. Why not? We're asking the Muslims to just ignore certain texts and be hypocritical like Christians.

It seems the only truly honest Christians are the awful ones. Not the nice lukewarm ones.

Quote: rxwine

The rightwing will insist that it's okay to attack bad individuals when it's Christians, but is not happy if we don't lump every Muslim in with barbarity.

Christians won't clean up their Bible and remove passage of Leviticus. Why not? We're asking the Muslims to just ignore certain texts and be hypocritical like Christians.

It seems the only truly honest Christians are the awful ones. Not the nice lukewarm ones.

I agree, people who follow religious texts tend to be the awful ones. People who are "moderate" tend not to take their religion very seriously. The bible is pretty barbaric as well (and has some crazy rules), so people who follow it can be pretty bad.

Nobody is saying lump every Muslim in with barbarity (well I am not). But, I have presented evidence, both laws on the books (that are routinely carried out) and statistics of Muslim views on social issues that show these countries have massive issues....

Islam is more complex in many ways, you have the Koran, the Hadiths (which can vary in interpretation and are allegedly recorded actions and teaching of Muhamed outside of the Koran). This is why there are so many competing sects of Islam, there are many interpretations. But, even dealing with just the Koran, its pretty barbaric. Sam Harris said, "There is nothing ISIS is doing that contradicts the Koran", and he is not wrong. It is a scary read (more boring that the bible, not as poetic or epic in scale). The difference between Christians in America is we have a secular country to keep them in check (and we were founded to be secular). Muslims often live in theocratical countries which allow extremists to thrive and bad ideas to spread (and actual policies that are barbaric to exist).

Yes, killing homosexuals is barbaric, and every Muslim who support it, is barbaric (see stats posted earlier in thread).

I don't know the last time a gay person was killed for being gay in America by a Christian, but not too long ago there was a shooting at the club in Florida by the Islamist which was clearly targeted for being a gay club.... But, more importantly we don't have a policy for the government to locate and execute gays in America (just the opposite, we have massive protections, rightfully so)…...

Saw the police cam video of the shooting in Atlanta. About the only thing I can see as a solution, is for the police to use proportional force in accordance with the violation or a crime.

So, you let a guy you're trying to arrest for intoxication run off if he gets away from you. Now if he got into the car, you'd be obligated to at follow as police. But running, no.

Does the entire fabric of policing break down if you do it this way? I don't know. A lot of minor crimes will never be processed if the person is able to get away.

But I'd have to see it play out to know for sure what the big overall picture ends up being.

Quote: rxwine

Saw the police cam video of the shooting in Atlanta. About the only thing I can see as a solution, is for the police to use proportional force in accordance with the violation or a crime.

So, you let a guy you're trying to arrest for intoxication run off if he gets away from you. Now if he got into the car, you'd be obligated to at follow as police. But running, no.

Does the entire fabric of policing break down if you do it this way? I don't know. A lot of minor crimes will never be processed if the person is able to get away.

But I'd have to see it play out to know for sure what the big overall picture ends up being.

You mean the one where he grabbed the taser, ran, and then turned around and pointed the taser at the officer (and then got shot)?

Quote: Gandler

You mean the one where he grabbed the taser, ran, and then turned around and pointed the taser at the officer (and then got shot)?

It's from when they are talking to him. They had already searched him (so I hear) and knew he didn't have another weapon.

Quote: rxwine

It's from when they are talking to him. They had already searched him (so I hear) and knew he didn't have another weapon.

Link to the video? I think we may be talking about different Atlanta cases...

Quote: Gandler

Link to the video? I think we may be talking about different Atlanta cases...

Nope... this is THE Atlanta case that is in the news now... the one which the police chief resigned after.... I don't know... a criminal steals a cops taser and when being chased turns and points it at the cop..... WTF else is the cop to do? Unless you think that the cop should run away from all criminals.... You steal a taser and point it at a cop..... you deserve to die.