The City on Fire

Quote: Gandler

Not sure what your insinuation is. I have been pulled over repeatedly for lights burned out....

I never get upset over it.

I wish the cops would pull over more people. I hate people driving with headlights out at night.

You are trying to connect cables that are not compatible. The fact that you get away for it for so long is great for you I guess?

Again, you make subtle hints that I am racist for posting fact (crime data from the government). But, make no effort to show data that contradicts it.

Facts:
1. 98.5% of police shootings are justified.
2. Most people shot by police are white.
3. Most black people shot by police are shot by black cops.
4. The amount of unjustified shootings of black people by white cops (merge all of the factors together and you will see how is microscopic).
5. More black people were killed by other black people in the course of this conversation (last 24 hours) than will be killed by white police the rest of the year....






https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=84

I didn’t say anything about you being racist, just that your general view that there is no unequal treatment from police, where race is involved, is more suited to the general mentality of your average White Georgian than it is around here. Not headlights or taillights, license plate light. The light that cops need to see your plates if they decide to just randomly run them while they follow you and wait for results. Except, they don’t do that with me too often, because I’m white and no longer young.

1. No grounds to dispute.
2. By raw number? I’d sure as hell hope so. That’s a, “The sky is blue,” statistic.
3. I believe it, stands to reason that majority black areas would be similarly represented in law enforcement. That’s a, “The grass is green,” statistic.
4. What constitutes justified or unjustified? I ask only to see if I want to look further into it because #2 and #3 seem pretty obvious.
5. Can I borrow your crystal ball when you’re done with it?

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Gandler

Not sure what your insinuation is. I have been pulled over repeatedly for lights burned out....

I never get upset over it.

I wish the cops would pull over more people. I hate people driving with headlights out at night.

You are trying to connect cables that are not compatible. The fact that you get away for it for so long is great for you I guess?

Again, you make subtle hints that I am racist for posting fact (crime data from the government). But, make no effort to show data that contradicts it.

Facts:
1. 98.5% of police shootings are justified.
2. Most people shot by police are white.
3. Most black people shot by police are shot by black cops.
4. The amount of unjustified shootings of black people by white cops (merge all of the factors together and you will see how is microscopic).
5. More black people were killed by other black people in the course of this conversation (last 24 hours) than will be killed by white police the rest of the year....






https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=84

I didn’t say anything about you being racist, just that your general view that there is no unequal treatment from police, where race is involved, is more suited to the general mentality of your average White Georgian than it is around here. Not headlights or taillights, license plate light. The light that cops need to see your plates if they decide to just randomly run them while they follow you and wait for results. Except, they don’t do that with me too often, because I’m white and no longer young.

1. No grounds to dispute.
2. By raw number? I’d sure as hell hope so. That’s a, “The sky is blue,” statistic.
3. I believe it, stands to reason that majority black areas would be similarly represented in law enforcement. That’s a, “The grass is green,” statistic.
4. What constitutes justified or unjustified? I ask only to see if I want to look further into it because #2 and #3 seem pretty obvious.
5. Can I borrow your crystal ball when you’re done with it?

Its not just raw numbers, if you see my earlier post, even when scaled to criminal activity whites are disproportionally shot more than blacks when scaled for criminal activity.

As for what justifies deadly force, is a perceived threat to ones life I believe the phrase is. Also, not all killings result from intentional deadly force, sometimes routine non-lethal options turn deadly if there is an underlying medical condition (such as a chokehold turning into a heart attack etc....)

As for my crystal ball its based off past years. And, my guess this year will be even less police killings with how watered down police departments are becoming and how they are essentially being told to stand down all over the country (while the criminals will continue to shoot each other as they always do), so this year I would bet will have an even bigger disparity by the end....

Quote: Gandler

Its not just raw numbers, if you see my earlier post, even when scaled to criminal activity whites are disproportionally shot more than blacks when scaled for criminal activity.

As for what justifies deadly force, is a perceived threat to ones life I believe the phrase is. Also, not all killings result from intentional deadly force, sometimes routine non-lethal options turn deadly if there is an underlying medical condition (such as a chokehold turning into a heart attack etc....)

As for my crystal ball its based off past years. And, my guess this year will be even less police killings with how watered down police departments are becoming and how they are essentially being told to stand down all over the country (while the criminals will continue to shoot each other as they always do), so this year I would bet will have an even bigger disparity by the end....

You know something? I like you. I’m going to apologize for bringing up Georgia so frequently, there’s really no reason for me to do that. Where you live really has no direct relevance to the conversation at hand.

I tend to think that anyone can find criminal activity when they’re inclined to find it. You’ve got a bar down the street with an illegal machine that pays cash, two cops who drink at that bar, nobody says a thing. If they ever decided to do something about that machine, I seriously doubt the result would be a death or shooting of any kind.

It’s a disconnect that can’t be proven, and I’m not going to claim it can, but many people agree it exists. That’s the concept of over-policing that you see get talked about.

It’s also not just the cops acting unilaterally. I don’t know the guy across the street other than his name and the usual talk about the weather if we’re outside having a smoke at the same time. We’ve got some young men who live next door and occasionally like to smoke weed outside. I know I’m not going to call the cops for anybody smoking weed, even though the smell annoys me. The guy across the street, maybe his perception of how much of a nuisance it is changes if those neighbors were black.

So, my point is maybe if the cops were responding with the same frequency to the same things white people do, fewer of the incidents (by percentage) would have a lethal or violent result.

The crystal ball was kind of a joke relating to the next 24 hours specifically. I was pretending to take it literally even though I knew what you meant.

For those of you with their eyes on Seattle events, CHAZ has now been changed to CHOP, Capitol Hill Occupied Protest, so as not to incur the wrath of the military with their previous word Autonomous.

Quote: zippyboy

For those of you with their eyes on Seattle events, CHAZ has now been changed to CHOP, Capitol Hill Occupied Protest, so as not to incur the wrath of the military with their previous word Autonomous.

Not sure that is a better choice. Sounds a bit like the acronym for a comic book villainous group. C.H.O.P. Where is Spiderman?

Quote: Mission146

You know something? I like you. I’m going to apologize for bringing up Georgia so frequently, there’s really no reason for me to do that. Where you live really has no direct relevance to the conversation at hand.

Unsure if sarcasm but thanks?

Quote: Mission146

I tend to think that anyone can find criminal activity when they’re inclined to find it. You’ve got a bar down the street with an illegal machine that pays cash, two cops who drink at that bar, nobody says a thing. If they ever decided to do something about that machine, I seriously doubt the result would be a death or shooting of any kind.

Yes. Probably because the bar owner would pay the fine and remove the machine, and lose his lottery license (I assume you are referring to lottery machines , which are for all intents and purposes slot machines, when you say that, where there is a common scheme to payout cash instead of merchandise like required). Business owners would be foolish to respond violently, they just pay the fine, remove the machine, and move on (maybe put it back a few months later).

Quote: Mission146

It’s a disconnect that can’t be proven, and I’m not going to claim it can, but many people agree it exists. That’s the concept of over-policing that you see get talked about.

And, that is my issue. When we deal with feelings and perceptions instead of hard data. People can say they feel society is racist. People can think they were treated badly because of their race (instead of maybe that is how that cop treats everyone). Its all subjective and not provable. If you show me a racist policy, I will be the first to oppose it. But, emotions (often not grounded in fact) don't interest me. Most, shootings that BLM protests are justified after review and the videos come out, it shows that people act on emotion first not logic.

Quote: Mission146

It’s also not just the cops acting unilaterally. I don’t know the guy across the street other than his name and the usual talk about the weather if we’re outside having a smoke at the same time. We’ve got some young men who live next door and occasionally like to smoke weed outside. I know I’m not going to call the cops for anybody smoking weed, even though the smell annoys me. The guy across the street, maybe his perception of how much of a nuisance it is changes if those neighbors were black.

And, maybe you smoking cigarettes outside annoy him?
If he has a medical card, you can't call the police for something that annoys you.... I think pot should be legal anyway.

I have a neighbor who is black, and in a wheelchair, constantly smoking pot outside. I assume he has a medical card, if not I couldn't care less, not my business, does not effect me, and very nice guy.

I honestly get more annoyed when I have neighborhoods who are alcoholics and drunk every night (because alcohol usually leads to shouting and craziness)…… But even then, unless they are actively causing safety concerns I am not going to call the police.... I think alcohol causes far more violence than pot....

Quote: Mission146

So, my point is maybe if the cops were responding with the same frequency to the same things white people do, fewer of the incidents (by percentage) would have a lethal or violent result.

The crystal ball was kind of a joke relating to the next 24 hours specifically. I was pretending to take it literally even though I knew what you meant.

I am not sure I follow this point.

If cops respond with the same frequency to what? They respond to all calls? Or are you saying certain communities are less likely to call the police?
I am sorry I am totally lost on what you are trying to explain.

Quote: Gandler

Unsure if sarcasm but thanks?

Not at all, you seem pretty cool. I wouldn't sarcastically say I like someone. We disagree on a lot, but you seem like the sort of dude (if I drank) where we could drink a beer and give each other the type of crap we can't exactly do on the forum, but it would be good-natured.

Quote:

Yes. Probably because the bar owner would pay the fine and remove the machine, and lose his lottery license (I assume you are referring to lottery machines , which are for all intents and purposes slot machines, when you say that, where there is a common scheme to payout cash instead of merchandise like required). Business owners would be foolish to respond violently, they just pay the fine, remove the machine, and move on (maybe put it back a few months later).

Cherry Masters, straight illegal, nothing to do with PA lottery and I don't think the bar sells lottery tickets. They are legal if they are, "For amusement only," and all of them have a sign that says that, but it's only sometimes true.

Quote:

And, that is my issue. When we deal with feelings and perceptions instead of hard data. People can say they feel society is racist. People can think they were treated badly because of their race (instead of maybe that is how that cop treats everyone). Its all subjective and not provable. If you show me a racist policy, I will be the first to oppose it. But, emotions (often not grounded in fact) don't interest me. Most, shootings that BLM protests are justified after review and the videos come out, it shows that people act on emotion first not logic.

I'm not going to disagree with your sentiment; I like data; I like math, but not everything can be quantified. Even when attempts at quantification are made, as you know, there is usually some agenda behind the attempt, so it intentionally seeks out something that will confirm a hypothesis. That by itself is fine, except when it is done in such a way to confirm that hypothesis while ignoring anything opposed to it.

---So, your source says this thing.

---Another more opinion based source says another thing.

And, the truth is almost certainly somewhere in the middle.

Quote:

And, maybe you smoking cigarettes outside annoy him?
If he has a medical card, you can't call the police for something that annoys you.... I think pot should be legal anyway.

I think all drugs should be legal, that wasn't exactly my point. My point is, I think there are more than zero white people who are more likely to call the police on black people than other white people. Probably true of more than zero black people to call the police on white people, though I doubt as frequently.

Quote:

I have a neighbor who is black, and in a wheelchair, constantly smoking pot outside. I assume he has a medical card, if not I couldn't care less, not my business, does not effect me, and very nice guy.

I honestly get more annoyed when I have neighborhoods who are alcoholics and drunk every night (because alcohol usually leads to shouting and craziness)…… But even then, unless they are actively causing safety concerns I am not going to call the police.... I think alcohol causes far more violence than pot....

See, you've got it right, but not everyone looks at things the same way you do. He can snort cocaine and nail a prostitute on his front lawn for all I care, as long as they're not doing anything that adversely affects me. I've got a back that I can turn to it all.

Quote:

I am not sure I follow this point.

If cops respond with the same frequency to what? They respond to all calls? Or are you saying certain communities are less likely to call the police?
I am sorry I am totally lost on what you are trying to explain.

My point is that I tend not to believe---in the commission of minor crimes---that white people have the police called on them as frequently. We saw that video of that cop who did the front legsweep to the old Indian guy, for example, do you think she calls the police if that's an old white dude just meandering around? If he's been doing it for three days and hasn't caused any trouble yet, what does she think the problem could possibly be?

Well, she's Southern, she didn't know him and she thought he was black...all she needed.

White people are more likely to call the police, in my opinion, on black people than they are other white people.

Even up here, I see stuff like that happen. A recent example is that there is a clerk at Sheetz who I have seen sell alcohol and only card one of the two customers at the counter. Just the other day, there's a black dude at the counter with three cans of beer, all of a sudden she wants ID from both the black guys. The one black dude doesn't have ID---oops, sorry, can't sell to you. If this other black dude looked under 21, I've got a thirteen inch---you can finish that sentence. Funny thing is, had the one just been in there by himself, she'd have sold to him no problem.

I guess they weren't from around here. Car had Jersey plates. I hope they don't get pulled over for anything or not having an ID will likely become a much bigger problem than he can't go into Sheetz with his friend anymore. Not that he's legally required to have one if not driving, but you know how that goes. Anyway, that policy has been in place for years at that store, when I did drink, my fiancee and I would sometimes pop in and I do get sent for beer (though not for me) on occasion---they've never once carded both of us. Funny, isn't it?

Quote: Mission146

Not at all, you seem pretty cool. I wouldn't sarcastically say I like someone. We disagree on a lot, but you seem like the sort of dude (if I drank) where we could drink a beer and give each other the type of crap we can't exactly do on the forum, but it would be good-natured.

Sounds good, unfortunately, other than Philadelphia I don't spend much time in PA. I have never really been in Western PA.

Quote: Mission146

Cherry Masters, straight illegal, nothing to do with PA lottery and I don't think the bar sells lottery tickets. They are legal if they are, "For amusement only," and all of them have a sign that says that, but it's only sometimes true.

I have never heard of these. A quick Google Search and I think I know what you mean. They don't have these is GA or NJ.

In GA, there are "lottery machines" (slot machines), that are licensed through the lottery (Coin Operated Amusement Machines as they are legally called), you put in however many quarters (never actually played one) and it spins like a slot machines and then you lose or win credits like a slot machines, the only thing is it is illegal to redeem credits for cash, they have to be redeemed for lottery tickets or store merchandise (like gas, often they are in gas stations). I don't think they should be legal. It sounds like a similar situation to your PA machines (perhaps without government oversight). May as well allow gas statios to have blackjack tables for gas credits and call it a "lottery table".... Pretty much everyday there is a "breaking story" of some gas station using them as a regular slot machine. I am sure the same happens in PA with the Cherry Machines (even if they are not officially sanctioned).

https://www.gacoam.com/

Quote: Mission146

I'm not going to disagree with your sentiment; I like data; I like math, but not everything can be quantified. Even when attempts at quantification are made, as you know, there is usually some agenda behind the attempt, so it intentionally seeks out something that will confirm a hypothesis. That by itself is fine, except when it is done in such a way to confirm that hypothesis while ignoring anything opposed to it.

---So, your source says this thing.

---Another more opinion based source says another thing.

And, the truth is almost certainly somewhere in the middle.

Yes I agree.

Quote: Mission146

I think all drugs should be legal, that wasn't exactly my point. My point is, I think there are more than zero white people who are more likely to call the police on black people than other white people. Probably true of more than zero black people to call the police on white people, though I doubt as frequently.

I generally agree. I think drugs should be legalized, taxed and regulated (like alcohol). There may be some extreme exceptions (drugs where overdose is common, and drugs where addiction is common, and yes I realize that both of these criteria apply to alcohol.... So its a tricky subject because we already have some of the most dangerous drugs legal and sold at every gas station.....).
This would generate massive revenue and save money (and also put a lot of gangs and cartels out of business).

Generally, I support legalizing most drugs. But, pot should 100% be legal, there is not rational reason to keep it illegal. The other common drugs you can get into nuanced arguments about and my opinion can be swayed based off of the drug.

Quote: Mission146

See, you've got it right, but not everyone looks at things the same way you do. He can snort cocaine and nail a prostitute on his front lawn for all I care, as long as they're not doing anything that adversely affects me. I've got a back that I can turn to it all.

Public fornication may be a little too far for me. But, I generally agree with your point....

Quote: Mission146

My point is that I tend not to believe---in the commission of minor crimes---that white people have the police called on them as frequently. We saw that video of that cop who did the front legsweep to the old Indian guy, for example, do you think she calls the police if that's an old white dude just meandering around? If he's been doing it for three days and hasn't caused any trouble yet, what does she think the problem could possibly be?

Well, she's Southern, she didn't know him and she thought he was black...all she needed.

White people are more likely to call the police, in my opinion, on black people than they are other white people.

Even up here, I see stuff like that happen. A recent example is that there is a clerk at Sheetz who I have seen sell alcohol and only card one of the two customers at the counter. Just the other day, there's a black dude at the counter with three cans of beer, all of a sudden she wants ID from both the black guys. The one black dude doesn't have ID---oops, sorry, can't sell to you. If this other black dude looked under 21, I've got a thirteen inch---you can finish that sentence. Funny thing is, had the one just been in there by himself, she'd have sold to him no problem.

I guess they weren't from around here. Car had Jersey plates. I hope they don't get pulled over for anything or not having an ID will likely become a much bigger problem than he can't go into Sheetz with his friend anymore. Not that he's legally required to have one if not driving, but you know how that goes. Anyway, that policy has been in place for years at that store, when I did drink, my fiancee and I would sometimes pop in and I do get sent for beer (though not for me) on occasion---they've never once carded both of us. Funny, isn't it?

Well maybe. I don't know.

Again my problem with anecdotes like that are the same with traffic stops. A lot comes down to perception. I don't think I have never not been carded, and I am a white male, and always well groomed. I think people see that they want to see when they have an inconvenience. Heck, I get carded for tobacco/nicotine products (well I guess that is 21 now as well anyway....) The only place I don't get carded is casinos, but I am sure that is because their cameras do it automatically....

As for white people being more eager to call police on black people. I don't know. Maybe. We have certainly seen some stupid people (like that crazy lady in NYC) , but I think that is a vast overstatement.

My general sentiment is, if I see or suspect somebody of causing harm I will call the police, race is irrelevant. I think I have only called the police (not 911, more of a general report) on anyone (organization) in my life, and it was this sketchy company (not really) writing checks from a law firm without permission in order to cover the cost of ordering advertising materials (I don't even remember what for) from their site (you would buy the stuff online with a credit card, then checks that "reimburse" you, would bounce a few days later, and they would be gone by then, I did not fall for it, but I took one of the checks for evidence and sent it to the lawfirm and police, apparently its a common scam).

But, I am very cautious and give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't believe in calling the police on anyone unless there is a clear threat to safety or welfare. I am pretty socially liberal and unless you are actively trying to cause harm, I can't see myself calling the police on you. I don't believe on calling 911 for people you don't know walking in your neighborhood (even though our local police do encourage people to do exactly that...)

Quote: Gandler

As for white people being more eager to call police on black people. I don't know. Maybe. We have certainly seen some stupid people (like that crazy lady in NYC) , but I think that is a vast overstatement.

You should try an implicit bias test.

If you are inherently unbiased you should get a neutral score. It's a speed test. You match white and black faces to positive and negative words. You do it several repetitions of the test with the words and the images mixing up differently each time. Any slowing to think, hurts your score.

The more your mind already has positive thoughts towards the image, the quicker your response is. The less it fits with your view, the cognitive dissonance slows your times.

If you actually view white and black people equally the neutral score should occur just as if you used abstract images.

I would bet a lot of money against anyone who told me they could ignore inner bias which would mean they could move their score one way or the other at will. But conditions would have to be so that they immediately took the test, without any days to practice. And now that I mentioned it, I wouldn't make the bet.

But if I was right in the room with someone, and just told them about the test, I would bet them in a heartbeat they couldn't control the results no matter how hard they tried.

edit slight correction, the more the image fits with a negative of positive view, the faster you can answer -- and so forth. The less, the slower.

Quote: rxwine

You should try an implicit bias test.

If you are inherently unbiased you should get a neutral score. It's a speed test. You match white and black faces to positive and negative words. You do it several repetitions of the test with the words and the images mixing up differently each time. Any slowing to think, hurts your score.

The more your mind already has positive thoughts towards the image, the quicker your response is. The less it fits with your view, the cognitive dissonance slows your times.

If you actually view white and black people equally the neutral score should occur just as if you used abstract images.

I would bet a lot of money against anyone who told me they could ignore inner bias which would mean they could move their score one way or the other at will. But conditions would have to be so that they immediately took the test, without any days to practice. And now that I mentioned it, I wouldn't make the bet.

But if I was right in the room with someone, and just told them about the test, I would bet them in a heartbeat they couldn't control the results no matter how hard they tried.

edit slight correction, the more the image fits with a negative of positive view, the faster you can answer -- and so forth. The less, the slower.

Yes, everyone has an implicit bias, which is why it is important to slow down and think with logic. People tend to make bad decisions when they use base emotions.