First Principles

January 5th, 2020 at 9:27:33 PM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: FrGamble


Excellent post Mission.

For myself the weaknesses in all these arguments for God comes down to, "so what". It is possible with logic for anyone cone to exactly the point you are at. There might be a God and it even makes sense that there is. BUT, so what does it matter?!?
That is the real question and if God is just an unknowable and all powerful force that explains why there is something rather than nothing that I don't care to worship or know that thing.
The difference is that I have a real, felt, powerful, intimate, encouraging, forgiving, and loving relationship with God revealed through the person of Jesus Christ. I can no longer join you with the wish or intellectual excercise concerning if God exists or not. You might as well try to deny the existence of your best friend.

No before this sounds too sappy, let me be clear that like in any real relationship there have been many rocky patches and a few times when I didn't care for my "friend". I've yelled and cried and said many of the things it sounds like you want to say. There is also nothing at all special about me. God desires this relationship with all of us.


And an excellent post by you, I appreciate the attempt to see my perspective.

It’s not a question as simple as whether or not there is a God, even if I weren’t inclined to the, “So what,” answer. Even if one accepts that there is a God, which I most certainly do not, now we have to ask questions like: Is there one God or multiple gods? If one God, why the God of Abraham as opposed to others identified? Why any of them? What proof is there that we have any understanding whatsoever of who God is, why he or she caused us to come into being and what the motivations of God are? If it is possible that there is such an alternative God, then it is also possible that existence itself is the only proof we have of that God’s existence and the only thing we know of said God is that he, she or it put us here.

The point being, more than one question would have to satisfactorily be answered before the conclusion can be God of Abraham. First cause, even if accepted as proof (which I don’t) is just a first step.

And all of this renders Jesus Christ immaterial to me, because I would first have to arrive at God of Abraham before Jesus Christ even begins to become a concern.

I’m also not flatly denying God’s existence or that of Jesus Christ as the Catholics would tell it. I accept both of these things as possible. I don’t believe, but I accept it as possible.

I don’t want to say anything because I don’t believe God exists. If I wanted to say anything, I would definitely say it. Because I do not believe God exists, I have no need to say anything to God. If he can prove his existence to me, neither he nor you would like what I would have to say in that hypothetical event. The nicest part of my diatribe would be, “I could have done it better by not doing it at all.”
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
January 5th, 2020 at 9:30:07 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
There are many good reasons to be an atheist. However, saying their is no evidence or arguments for God is NOT one of them. .


It's pretty much the ONLY reason
there are atheists. Some are
turned off by the hypocritical
nature of organized religion.
But most of us are atheists because
there is zero evidence, and the
arguments for a god are ridiculous.
They only make sense if you're
a believer already, so they're
worthless to an outsider.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 6th, 2020 at 5:42:58 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Mission146
And an excellent post by you, I appreciate the attempt to see my perspective.

It’s not a question as simple as whether or not there is a God, even if I weren’t inclined to the, “So what,” answer. Even if one accepts that there is a God, which I most certainly do not, now we have to ask questions like: Is there one God or multiple gods? If one God, why the God of Abraham as opposed to others identified? Why any of them? What proof is there that we have any understanding whatsoever of who God is, why he or she caused us to come into being and what the motivations of God are? If it is possible that there is such an alternative God, then it is also possible that existence itself is the only proof we have of that God’s existence and the only thing we know of said God is that he, she or it put us here.

The point being, more than one question would have to satisfactorily be answered before the conclusion can be God of Abraham. First cause, even if accepted as proof (which I don’t) is just a first step.

And all of this renders Jesus Christ immaterial to me, because I would first have to arrive at God of Abraham before Jesus Christ even begins to become a concern.

I’m also not flatly denying God’s existence or that of Jesus Christ as the Catholics would tell it. I accept both of these things as possible. I don’t believe, but I accept it as possible.

I don’t want to say anything because I don’t believe God exists. If I wanted to say anything, I would definitely say it. Because I do not believe God exists, I have no need to say anything to God. If he can prove his existence to me, neither he nor you would like what I would have to say in that hypothetical event. The nicest part of my diatribe would be, “I could have done it better by not doing it at all.”


All those why questions are good ones. The problem with all why questions are that we can get lost in them without moving past a why to a try. We wouldn't really know anything if we didn't actually do something outside our head to answer this why. I would recommend you put aside your doubts and at least for a moment and tell this possible God in the possible person of Jesus Christ the crucified and risen one what you really feel. No matter how bad you think it is, pour it out, if He is real He has experienced worse. After unloading then listen in your heart to a response. Just a suggestion if you'd like to try something to move past all the paralysizing why questions.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 6th, 2020 at 6:54:54 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: FrGamble
All those why questions are good ones. The problem with all why questions are that we can get lost in them without moving past a why to a try. We wouldn't really know anything if we didn't actually do something outside our head to answer this why. I would recommend you put aside your doubts and at least for a moment and tell this possible God in the possible person of Jesus Christ the crucified and risen one what you really feel. No matter how bad you think it is, pour it out, if He is real He has experienced worse. After unloading then listen in your heart to a response. Just a suggestion if you'd like to try something to move past all the paralysizing why questions.


Thank you, Padre. However, to be clear, I used to be a Christian so I have already done as you suggested. I asked my questions to the empty air around me and received the expected response of nothing. My heart is an organ concerned with transporting oxygen throughout my body using blood as its vessel. I do not believe I have a soul.

This is not a question of intellectual pride for me, but rather one of my own personal sanity. I believe what I consider to be sane and that belief is that I do not know and cannot claim to know. One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is that I claim to know, which I do not.

I have said about God, and to him, if he does exist, everything that I have to say. I could have done a better job of creating the world by simply not creating the world at all is the conclusion of that, and most of the stuff prior to that would be seen as pure blasphemy. I suppose the conclusion is also blasphemy. Beyond that, according to the doctrine, God knows what is in my heart...so even if he does exist...I have no need to say anything to him because there is no point in telling him that which he already knows.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
January 6th, 2020 at 10:51:00 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Just a suggestion if you'd like to try something to move past all the paralysizing clarifying why questions.


Fixed that for you. Questions bring
clarity, not paralysis. It's all crystal
clear to me.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 6th, 2020 at 3:12:12 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Why questions do help clarify, but you can always ask more and more. I'm afraid I've not seen any evidence that you are seriously asking why questions but rather are very closed minded.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 6th, 2020 at 4:16:13 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Why questions do help clarify, but you can always ask more and more. I'm afraid I've not seen any evidence that you are seriously asking why questions but rather are very closed minded.


What would a serious question look
like, I have no idea what you mean.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 10th, 2020 at 12:43:45 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Evenbob
What would a serious question look
like, I have no idea what you mean.


This was 3 days ago. What would a serious
question look like. I thought I was very
serious.

Here's one. If your god so desperately
wants a relationship with all of us, why
does he do such a terrific job of hiding.
What's his game, cause I sure can't find
him.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 10th, 2020 at 11:53:40 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
He is not hiding, you are.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 10th, 2020 at 12:17:02 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
He is not hiding, you are.


Seriously. You accuse me of
not asking the right questions,
which means you must know
what those questions are.
Please give some examples.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.