First Principles

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think the number of people believing in something can change if something is true or not. God as a creator is something that even unaided human reason can know. Even when people reject this truth it doesn't change it. Nor does a majority of people believing slavery is okay. Objective truth is bot subjected to our subjective beliefs.

I don't think the number of people believing something can change if it is physically true or not. The fact that God can not be proven to exist is something that even unaided human reason can know. Even when people proclaim that God's existence is absolutely true it doesn't change it. Nor does a majority of people believing slavery is okay. Objective truth is not subjected to our subjective beliefs.

Let's focus on that:

Objective truth is not subjected to our subjective beliefs

We agree on this point, or at least, the intent behind it. Really, 'Objective truth,' is a colloquial phrase that lacks physical meaning. In both the physical and the non-physical realm, something is either true or it is not true. The same can be applied to logical propositions in a closed environment, which is why and how math works.

When we use a term such as, "Subjective truth," that doesn't have any meaning beyond the colloquial. Things are true or they are not true. If it is a subjective that cannot be proven, then it is not a truth, but rather a belief, conviction or opinion.

In my opinion, that is the problem with your position. Your position fails to separate the notion of truth from belief. You say that what is or is not true is not subject to beliefs, but that is precisely what your position does because to do anything else would be to admit to the possibility that you are wrong. You can't admit that possibility as a man of the cloth because you are not permitted to do so, some interpretations of the Bible are such that no Christian could admit to that possibility.

Unfortunately, because you cannot freely acknowledge the possibility that God does not exist as you would have him exist, there is no way to have an intellectually honest conversation about whether or not he does. Your premise is that he does, your supporting argument is that he does and your conclusion is that he does. If all I need to support and conclude my position is the position itself, then I can claim literally almost anything to be true...provided what I am claiming cannot strictly be proven to be false.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to simply ask clarifying questions, not so much debate. I don't think people think enough about their first principles.

Oh, I understand. And I know you are trying to be respectful. But really, under the terms proposed, the only thing any of us should be saying, including those who are questioning you, is “Thank you for sharing your views.”

Quote: Mission146

Unfortunately, because you cannot freely acknowledge the possibility that God does not exist as you would have him exist, there is no way to have an intellectually honest conversation about whether or not he does. Your premise is that he does, your supporting argument is that he does and your conclusion is that he does. If all I need to support and conclude my position is the position itself, then I can claim literally almost anything to be true...provided what I am claiming cannot strictly be proven to be false.

That's one of the reasons that I limit talking about this stuff.

My first reaction to the original post was what he really wanted us to do was to admit that for question 1) God is the reason we exist and he made everything perfect and is responsible for everything that is good, and 2) people are responsible for messing it up and for everything that is bad.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think the number of people believing in something can change if something is true or not.
.

Sure you do. How many times over
the years have you pointed out
how many Xtions there are, like
their sheer numbers mean there
must be a god.

Quote:

Objective truth is bot subjected to our subjective beliefs.

God is not a subjective truth, you've
proven that again and again by your
lack of proof of his existence. ALL
gods are subjective and can be just
as real to the believer as if they were
objective.
This is not a word game. Even neurologists
agree that the subjective reality provided
by the brain can be just as real as
objective reality. We create our own
reality inside the objective reality
that surrounds us, and every one is
different. The observer is the observed.

Quote: Evenbob

This is not a word game. Even neurologists
agree that the subjective reality provided
by the brain can be just as real as
objective reality. We create our own
reality inside the objective reality
that surrounds us, and every one is
different. The observer is the observed.

It is a word game. There is only one reality. What you are referring to is nothing more than perception. We can create or self-amend our perceptions, but not reality.

Quote: Mission146

It is a word game. There is only one reality.

So you think your reality is the same
as the Amazon jungle dweller who
has never seen society? You think
he looks at anything in his environment
the same way you do? Show him
a video on your phone and he may
very well kill you.

Quote: Evenbob

So you think your reality is the same
as the Amazon jungle dweller who
has never seen society? You think
he looks at anything in his environment
the same way you do? Show him
a video on your phone and he may
very well kill you.

I don't have a different reality from that person, I exist in a different place than that person in reality and have different experiences.

"You think he looks at anything..." Exactly, perspective. He has a different perspective than I do. I know a video on the phone is a video on the phone, he might perceive the video on the phone as being witchcraft, but the video that is actually playing on the phone remains unchanged. Why? Because the video playing on the phone is part of reality.

Quote: Mission146

I don't have a different reality from that person,.

Your subjective reality is totally different
than his. Do you even know what
subjective reality is? Google is your
friend.

Quote: Evenbob

Your subjective reality is totally different
than his. Do you even know what
subjective reality is? Google is your
friend.

It's either another word for what would more correctly be called perspective, or complete dreck, depending on which interpretation of the term you are looking at. Solipsism in a different guise, wolf in sheep's clothing, garbage. "Subjective reality," refers to a view of the world that is every bit as egocentric as the notion that God created us.

Quote: Mission146

"Subjective reality," refers to a view of the world that is every bit as egocentric as the notion that God created us.

Here's an example of subjective reality.
400 years ago most people in Europe
believed in witches. Xtions, Protestants,
they all thought witches were a real
threat with real powers, so when they
could they killed them.

It was a totally whack subjective reality
they created. They absolutely believed
they were right, you could not reason
with them. It wasn't a matter of
perspective, to them it was very much
a part of reality. Everybody thought
it, they had what they thought were
good reasons for believing it, that
was their reality.

It's why we lock people away in
nut houses, when the subjective
reality they create is a threat to
themselves and others.