First Principles

Quote: Mission146

Thank you, Padre. However, to be clear, I used to be a Christian so I have already done as you suggested. I asked my questions to the empty air around me and received the expected response of nothing. My heart is an organ concerned with transporting oxygen throughout my body using blood as its vessel. I do not believe I have a soul.

This is not a question of intellectual pride for me, but rather one of my own personal sanity. I believe what I consider to be sane and that belief is that I do not know and cannot claim to know. One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is that I claim to know, which I do not.

I have said about God, and to him, if he does exist, everything that I have to say. I could have done a better job of creating the world by simply not creating the world at all is the conclusion of that, and most of the stuff prior to that would be seen as pure blasphemy. I suppose the conclusion is also blasphemy. Beyond that, according to the doctrine, God knows what is in my heart...so even if he does exist...I have no need to say anything to him because there is no point in telling him that which he already knows.

I've been thinking about and praying about your post Mission. It is clear that you've experienced some tough stuff in life to say the least. May I simply suggest reading Psalm 22?

Thank you, read it. I guess my only response is, “It’s not about me.”

Quote: Mission146

Thank you, read it. I guess my only response is, “It’s not about me.”

Man, your posts really pull on my heartstrings. All I can say is I love ya brother (or sister).

Quote: FrGamble

Another great post and one that convicted me on my strong stance against atheism..
I also appreciate the honest admission that there are very precious few things we actually "know".

I fear that in taking a stance against atheism, you are invading someone's "personal space" just as much as if you tried to lecture them on the way down after the failure of that airplane wing. Indeed it is your obligation to grasp their hand and say to them "You are right, there is no God" since that is what will bring them comfort in their final moments. That statement by you would be an example of your living your life according to your principles. When you are not in such an extreme situation, your obligation is still to live your life without preventing someone from achieving what they see as fulfillment.

The elusive, temporary, and fleeting comfort of this world is not what life is about. In my understanding there are eternal consequences connected to what we believe, say, and do. So I don't think it is invading their personal space or preventing someone to achieve something. However, I do acknowledge that God is mercy and love itself and He understands the person's reason for not believing more than I ever could. I trust in God's loving mercy for us all.

Quote: FrGamble

In my understanding there are eternal consequences connected to what we believe

So god is listening in on every
humans thoughts to see what
they believe so he can punish
them accordingly? Really? I
mean, listen to how ridiculous
that sounds..

Quote:

I trust in God's loving mercy for us all.

For every example of his 'mercy'
I can give a thousand examples
of his mercilesness. If he were
real, that is.

Quote: Evenbob

So god is listening in on every
humans thoughts to see what
they believe so he can punish
them accordingly? Really? I
mean, listen to how ridiculous
that sounds..

I don't think it's ridiculous from his perspective. Although, what does get pointed out is that God understands the person's reasons for believing why he does. Of course God would understand those, if assumed to be true. God put those underlying reasons there. God created the person. It's a known and fixed result, from the perspective of God.

This is where the, 'Free Will,' argument is going to come into play, but the two things are inconsistent with an omniscient and omnipotent God at play. Because he's omniscient, he already knows all of these things. If we also accept that he is omnipotent, then he put those things into being, motion and could change it for the better anytime he wants to.

In the unlikely event that there is a God, then we're his little personal playthings of his own design. He put us here, primarily, to argue and make war with one another. He introduced the concept of hate. If there is starvation, it is because he allows it. If there is suffering, it is because he caused that suffering to be.

Good news for me is that I don't believe in God, though I am surprised Christians tend to reject victim mentality. I don't see myself as a victim, but if I believed in God, my opinion on that would definitely change in a serious hurry. I'd see just about everyone as victims.

Anyway, don't believe. But, if he does exist, then he already knows I hate him and that he is the only entity in the Universe who I do hate. I could find a way to forgive anyone else anything, even though it would take more time in some cases than others.

Quote: Mission146

I don't think it's ridiculous from his perspective.

From a god persons side, nothing
apparently is ridiculous. Except
atheists, of course. lol

Quote:

n the unlikely event that there is a God, then we're his little personal playthings of his own design.

If the selfish, jealous, petty human
race is the best a god can do, that's
one pathetic god. Xtions love to
pretend we aren't all those things
by constantly hurling platitudes
at us, but deep down they know.
They can pretend we're all the
flowery crap they invent, but the
reality is we're a self centered
ego driven mess.

God most certainly didn't introduce the concept of hate, God does not cause suffering. God's plan for all of us is perfect and eternal happiness. This is achieved by simply loving God and others. For anyone to truly love we need free will. We choose to use our freedom to reject God and His plan. Suffering, starvation, and the brokenness of this world is not the design of God, but is what He is able to do in respecting our free will and the consequences of sin, while still offering eternal salvation.

Quote: FrGamble

God does not cause suffering. God's plan for all of us is perfect and eternal happiness. This is achieved by simply loving God and others..

See? Platitudes. Xtions are incapable
of seeing the objective world, they
only see the one they invent for
their subjective reality. We're all
perfect, they say, yet 'flawed'. We're
flawed all right, we're nothing but
flaws. And science will pull us out
of our disgusting selfish history,
not some mythical god.