Science and Religion

October 21st, 2019 at 3:37:09 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 119
Posts: 10655
Quote: odiousgambit


btw, AZ, you have to drop using that statement about "the Jews", replace it with High Priests or something, that is really offensive considering its history. At least I hope you don't blame "the Jews" as a group

*I think it was


I do not blame any Jews today, but it was a totally Jewish mob and issue. Pilate didn't want to be involved in the whole matter, considering it among the Jewish population of the area.

FWIW, the only company I ever worked for that had Good Friday as a holiday was Jewish owned, go figure.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
October 21st, 2019 at 6:31:10 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 139
Posts: 7979
While I don't believe we have any real grasp on the mechanism of how life began, I'm not too concerned. That probably is one of the top ten big questions, and no reason to expect any of those answers to come easily. It's just too easy to default to a god did it, which of course has no proof.
Trump Doctrine-Abandon loyal ally and make pathetic excuses why they weren't worthy
October 21st, 2019 at 6:36:12 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 139
Posts: 7979
I'm kind of fascinated by consciousness. It's right there with us all day. Each of us can study it as much as we want. But that doesn't make it any piece of cake to really understand.
Trump Doctrine-Abandon loyal ally and make pathetic excuses why they weren't worthy
October 21st, 2019 at 8:20:34 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 133
Posts: 18638
Quote: rxwine
I'm kind of fascinated by consciousness. It's right there with us all day. .


Carl Jung was fascinated with it too.
He came to believe there is a
universal consciousness that
we're all part of. Not a god, but
but a connection to the consciousness
of the universe. There were just
too many coincidences Jung saw
in his work.

For instance, it's a fact that numerous
mothers, and sometimes wives,
knew the exact moment their son
or husband died in WWI and WWII.
They probably knew in the CW and
other wars, but exact records weren't
kept. A universal consciousness would
explain this.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 22nd, 2019 at 4:50:22 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 108
Posts: 2659
Quote: Evenbob
Carl Jung was fascinated with it too.
He came to believe there is a 
universal consciousness that
we're all part of. Not a god, but
but a connection to the consciousness
of the universe. There were just
too many coincidences Jung saw
in his work.


For instance, it's a fact that numerous
mothers, and sometimes wives,
knew the exact moment their son
or husband died in WWI and WWII.
They probably knew in the CW and
other wars, but exact records weren't
kept. A universal consciousness would
explain this.
Bob, you impress me as someone who ... how do I put this? ... someone who is naturally a spiritual person, more so than me! Maybe this is why FrG has not given up on you. 


I'm not trying to make you angry but you seem to be quite ready to buy into some dubious stuff. Universal Consciouisnes, Reincarnation. I tend to think of any scientific investigations into these things to be suspect, other than to say such things cannot be declared something science shouldn't look into. I see there are two different Wikipedia pages for your topic,  'Universal Mind' and 'Panpsychism' . I might try to read those but I've got a lot on my plate at the moment. 


You're probably not convinced I'm not trying to make you angry, but I will go where angels fear to tread further and declare you're a person whose who's* very likely to pull an Oscar Wilde on your deathbed. Will you be quoted saying " I am simply a violent Papist"  like Wilde did ??


(I made a digest from the link below)

King Charles II of England ... this one is for FrG as it was a case of switching to Catholic


Jean de La Fontaine ... The most famous French fabulist . Not clear to me he was an Atheist? On the list anyway


Sir Allan Napier MacNab... never heard of him, but his conversion evidently is notable for being disputed 

Oscar Wilde ...  there is a "clear and unambiguous account": ‘When I went for the priest to come to his death-bed he was quite conscious and raised his hand in response to questions and satisfied the priest, Father Cuthbert Dunne of the Passionists. It was the morning before he died and for about three hours he understood what was going on (and knew I had come from the South in response to a telegram) that he was given the last sacrament. The Passionist house in Avenue Hoche, has a house journal which contains a record, written by Dunne, of his having received Wilde into full communion with the Church. While Wilde's conversion may have come as a surprise, he had long maintained an interest in the Catholic Church, having met with Pope Pius IX in 1877 and describing the Roman Catholic Church as "for saints and sinners alone – for respectable people, the Anglican Church will do". However, how much of a believer in all the tenets of Catholicism Wilde ever was is arguable: in particular, against Ross's insistence on the truth of Catholicism: "No, Robbie, it isn't true. My position is curious," Wilde epigrammatised, "I am not a Catholic: I am simply a violent Papist."

Wallace Stevens ... another disputed one. 


Charles Darwin ... Disputed and considered spurious since his "children denied this occurred." 


Björn Ironside ... notable as a pagan deathbed converter [9th century Viking king]


Anne Louise Germaine de Staël-Holstein ... in case you know who she is, she's new to me. Disputed. 


Bobby Jones (golfer) ... not made clear but I believe his was a deathbed conversion Protestant to Catholic


gotta stop here, more at the link of people obscure to me


Stephen Hawkings' conversion, not listed in the linked page actually, is spurious I think we can say, you can google that


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_conversion




*didn't notice misspelling till I was quoted
The light at the end of the tunnel can be a freight train coming the other way!..Fleastiff
October 22nd, 2019 at 10:26:24 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 133
Posts: 18638
Quote: odiousgambit
you seem to be quite ready to buy into some dubious stuff. Universal Consciouisnes, Reincarnation.


These aren't speculation, these are
facts. Do the research. There are
hundreds of cases where mothers
knew the instant a son died in a
war. They told people long before
they got the actual news. And this
was Carl Jung's life work, you feel
qualified to call him 'dubious'?
Really?

Scientific research into kids having
memories of a past life has been
going on at the U of Virginia since
1958. Thousands of cases have been
examined and vetted and nobody
can figure out how these kids were
born with exact and provable memories
of being another person.

No conclusions have been drawn, but
reincarnation is at the top of the list.
Do some research, satisfy yourself
that this is happening, and give us
your explanation. I'll warn you right
away that, no, the kids weren't
coached. That's what most of the
research entails, making 100% sure
there is no way a 3 year old could know
all the details of Bob Smiths life 300
miles away. That means the majority
of cases get thrown out, even though
they were probably legit. What's left
has puzzled even the staunchest critics.

Quote:
declare you're a person whose very likely to pull an Oscar Wilde on your deathbed.


LOL! You are about as far from the
truth as you can get. I have been
studying this stuff since 1969 and
all I get is even deeper into being
an atheist.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 22nd, 2019 at 5:21:18 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 5
Posts: 409
Quote: Evenbob
These aren't speculation, these are
facts. Do the research. There are
hundreds of cases where mothers
knew the instant a son died in a
war. They told people long before
they got the actual news. And this
was Carl Jung's life work, you feel
qualified to call him 'dubious'?
Really?

Scientific research into kids having
memories of a past life has been
going on at the U of Virginia since
1958. Thousands of cases have been
examined and vetted and nobody
can figure out how these kids were
born with exact and provable memories
of being another person.

No conclusions have been drawn, but
reincarnation is at the top of the list.
Do some research, satisfy yourself
that this is happening, and give us
your explanation. I'll warn you right
away that, no, the kids weren't
coached. That's what most of the
research entails, making 100% sure
there is no way a 3 year old could know
all the details of Bob Smiths life 300
miles away. That means the majority
of cases get thrown out, even though
they were probably legit. What's left
has puzzled even the staunchest critics.



LOL! You are about as far from the
truth as you can get. I have been
studying this stuff since 1969 and
all I get is even deeper into being
an atheist.


Did you read the Red Book?
October 22nd, 2019 at 8:22:46 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 133
Posts: 18638
Quote: Gandler
Did you read the Red Book?


I know it's Jung's journey into
the universal collective
consciousness between 1913
and 1917. From excerpts I've
seen it's a little over my head.
He did what later scientists
did with LSD, only he did it
without drugs. Entered his
own subconscious while in
a conscious state. The book
is expensive, even used.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 22nd, 2019 at 9:16:39 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 5
Posts: 409
Quote: Evenbob
I know it's Jung's journey into
the universal collective
consciousness between 1913
and 1917. From excerpts I've
seen it's a little over my head.
He did what later scientists
did with LSD, only he did it
without drugs. Entered his
own subconscious while in
a conscious state. The book
is expensive, even used.


That's essentially correct, I read most of it in 2010, it was a beefy book, even given the fact that it featured two languages, but it was interesting.

I just know when I was in college a lot of Jung fans were ecstatic when it came out in the end of 2009 early 2010 time frame.

If you are a Jung fan it is worth borrowing from a library and checking out (like you said purchasing is pricey, so generally the best bet is a college library, or there may be ebook versions now I am honestly not sure, back then I got it from college library, and it was a massive book -lots of large sized illustrations-).

I just remeber the huge buzz when his estate finally released a public version, very huge deal. I am not a Jung fanatic, but reading it was an interesting experience.
October 22nd, 2019 at 11:17:50 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 133
Posts: 18638
Quote: Gandler
That's essentially correct, I read most of it in 2010,


Jung said a few years before he died
that those years when he did the work
greatly influenced the rest of his career.
The original book is in a museum and
is worth millions. It's so odd that it
wasn't published till he'd been dead
for almost 50 years.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.