Happy Easter!

Quote: FrGamble

How do you make sense of miracles that happen today?

They have actual proof they occurred?
Mary's face in a rust stain on a toaster
isn't really a miracle, you know.

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Don't logical arguments like

Why does god always have to be
tricked and hoodwinked into
existence by clever arguments and
sneaky logic. That right there tells
us boatloads about if there's a
god or not, the sheer effort it takes
just to trick a few people into it.

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true without any argument or evidence is atheism.

That's because atheism isn't a 'thing',
it's the total lack of a thing. It's like
not collecting stamps. There is no
way I can prove I do not collect stamps.
Absolutely none. But I CAN prove I
collect stamps in any number of ways.

Do you see the problem? I cannot prove
a lack of something. You are the one making
the positive statement that needs evidence,
not the atheist. The total burden is on you
to make your case. Atheists get so tired
of god people pointing the finger and
demanding we prove a negative.

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Isn't the notion of God the oldest and most common human concept there is?

To the primitive mind, blaming some unseen
god for everything he can't explain is totally
logical. The more we discover about the way
things work, to more the need for the god
myth falls away.

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I can say that this is very selfish and with all due respect in my opinion an awful thing to do. .

He asked for money and I gave him
some. They are always very grateful,
you should try it. Makes you feel
really good about yourself.

He didn't ask to be my new best friend,
or that he wanted to tell me his name
and life story. He didn't ask for money
so I can take up 20 min of his begging
time because I'm so needy and full of
myself I can't give him money with no
strings attached.

He just wants some money and I give
him some and it makes both of us
happy. It's the perfect transaction.

Quote: Evenbob

They have actual proof they occurred?

Yes they do. Both medical doctors testimony for medical cures. There are also things like Our Lady of Guadalupe and mysterious image not painted on a 500 year old poor man's tilma. The Shroud of Turin and its photographic negative image hundreds of years before photography was invented. Then there is the Eucharistic miracles of Luciano and Oriveto and hundreds more. There are incorruptible saints and the list goes on and on. You can visit these things if you would like and see them yourself.

Quote:

Why does god always have to be
tricked and hoodwinked into
existence by clever arguments and
sneaky logic.

Everything needs arguments and logic to support it.

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That's because atheism isn't a 'thing',
it's the total lack of a thing. It's like
not collecting stamps. There is no
way I can prove I do not collect stamps.
Absolutely none. But I CAN prove I
collect stamps in any number of ways.

Do you see the problem?

Yes, the problem is you are avoiding the real truth statement of atheism. You are claiming that there is no God. You are not claiming that you don't believe in God. There is a big difference. Using your example if you are an atheist you are claiming that there is no such thing as a stamp and anyone who says they collect stamps is lying and is just making this whole stamp thing up. If you claim you just don't collect stamps then you are admitting that stamps may exist but that you do not collect them and think the practice is strange.

I can prove to you (and have) in any number of ways that I believe in God and that I know Him personally and that He exists. I imagine if I really loved stamp collecting I would use some of the same reasons that I have used to talk to you about God namely my personal experience and how much it has benefited my life. Why do you reject my reasoning for believing in God, but would accept the same reasoning if I told you I collected stamps? [please don't avoid these questions]

Quote:

To the primitive mind, blaming some unseen
god for everything he can't explain is totally
logical. The more we discover about the way
things work, to more the need for the god
myth falls away.

Do you think ancient people and the people of today only believed in the "God of the gaps"?

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He asked for money and I gave him
some. They are always very grateful,
you should try it. Makes you feel
really good about yourself.

What is more important: doing what makes yourself feel good or doing what makes another person feel good?

Quote:

He just wants some money and I give
him some and it makes both of us
happy. It's the perfect transaction.

Do you think money is really all he wants? Do you think money is really what he needs?

Quote: FrGamble

Yes they do. Both medical doctors testimony

They had doctors in the 40's that
swore cigarettes were not only
not harmful, they were good for
you. Some doctors testimony is
only as good as who's paying him
or what his religion is. Were
the results of these 'doctors' you
mention peer reviewed by the AMA?

Quote:

Everything needs arguments and logic to support it.

But the 'logic' for god always seems
to involve hocus pocus. 'Cover one
eye, spin around 3 times, and pop the
balloon with the dart' kind of logic.

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If you claim you just don't collect stamps then you are admitting that stamps may exist but that you do not collect them and think the practice is strange.

Then change it to unicorns. I don't think
they exist and you do. I have no way to
prove they don't exist. All you have to do
is show me one and the argument is over.

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Why do you reject my reasoning for believing in God

Because it's not real reasoning, it's the
reasoning of somebody who already
believes. That's why independent judges
in any contest are important. If they have
a dog in the race, they are incapable of
fairness, try as they might. Your 'reasoning'
makes perfect sense to you, (and here I go
again) as the reasoning to burn witches
made perfect sense to the Church 400 years
ago. Reasoning is only as reliable as the
entity doing it. My dog things he should eat
all my food as well as his, sounds perfectly
reasonable to him.

Do you think ancient people and the people of today only believed in the "God of the gaps"?

I don't care, it has no impact on
me what they believed. I don't
let the beliefs of others influence
me. I did at one time but grew
out of it.

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What is more important: doing what makes yourself feel good or doing what makes another person feel good?

The world is full of miserable people who
worry about the happiness of others before
they tend to their own. It's a fact that happy
people make other people happy. Unhappy people
make everybody around them miserable.
Do what makes you happy and it will spread.

Quote:

Do you think money is really all he wants? Do you think money is really what he needs?

Good grief, he asked me for money, not
to be psychoanalyzed. How is it by any
stretch of the imagination my business
to pry into his private affairs? How is it
anybodies business.

Here's how I live my life, please pay attention.
I assume everybody I meet is like me, they're
doing exactly what they want to be doing at
any given time. Why would I assume anything
different, it's none of my business.

If the homeless guy were to ask for advice
on how to live his life, I would gladly give
him an earful. But all he wants right now
from me is money, and that's what I give him.

It's the perfect transaction.

Quote: Evenbob

Were
the results of these 'doctors' you
mention peer reviewed by the AMA?

I'm sure they were or could be. The doctors who verify that there is no medical explanation for the miracles have to be objective and neutral. They are just regular doctors who testify on the case based solely on the medical information. The one case I know of in our diocese involved a few doctors from Johns Hopkins one of whom was a non-believer.

Quote:

But the 'logic' for god always seems
to involve hocus pocus. 'Cover one
eye, spin around 3 times, and pop the
balloon with the dart' kind of logic.

What about the cosmological argument makes you think of hocus pocus or the ridiculous type of thing you describe above?

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Then change it to unicorns. I don't think
they exist and you do. I have no way to
prove they don't exist. All you have to do
is show me one and the argument is over.

Let us say for a moment that myself and 99% of human beings throughout history do think that unicorns exist. Even if you ignore all the evidence I give you and my instruction on how to see one for yourself do you still see the problem with holding that unicorns absolutely do not exist? Do you recognize how hard and intellectually difficult it is to say with certainty that something does not exist; especially when there is so much evidence, experience, and philosophical reasoned arguments out there for God's existence?

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Because it's not real reasoning, it's the
reasoning of somebody who already
believes.

What about the reasoning I have presented would be different if I was an atheist? Isn't the beauty of reasoning and logic is that it is immune, like truth, to beliefs and wishful thinking?

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Reasoning is only as reliable as the
entity doing it.

Again, isn't reasoning the same no matter who is doing it? Do you mean that our emotions can get in the way of our reasoning, because if you are saying this I would agree with you and that is the real reason why judges recuse themselves from cases that they are personally involved in?

Quote:

I don't
let the beliefs of others influence
me. I did at one time but grew
out of it.

I wonder if this is really true?

Quote:

The world is full of miserable people who
worry about the happiness of others before
they tend to their own. It's a fact that happy
people make other people happy. Unhappy people
make everybody around them miserable.
Do what makes you happy and it will spread.

Wouldn't it be more true to say that the world is full of miserable people who worry about their own happiness before they care for others? Who are the most unhappy people you know in your life or in the world? Isn't that person or people known to be selfish and egotistical and materialistic? Then think for a moment who are the happiest people you know in your life? Aren't they the ones that seem to help out others the most and care for others without even seeming to think of themselves first?

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Here's how I live my life, please pay attention.
I assume everybody I meet is like me, they're
doing exactly what they want to be doing at
any given time.

So do you think the homeless guy begging for money on the street is doing exactly what they want to be doing at that time?

Quote: FrGamble

The doctors who verify that there is no medical explanation

Hold on, that's proof of a miracle?
C'mon. There was no medical proof (at the time)
of what caused the Plague, does that
make it a miracle? Black holes have
no explanation (yet), are they miracles
too? I thought you meant doctors had
evidence that god did something. What
they have a lack of something, which is
the same as nothing.

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do you still see the problem with holding that unicorns absolutely do not exist?

That's my stance, something doesn't
exist until proof comes along that it
does. Reincarnation hasn't been
proven, even with all the scientific
research at the university level in
the last 65 years. There is piles of
evidence that point in that direction,
but as yet no proof. For god there
isn't even any evidence, so yeah, he
doesn't exist.

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Isn't the beauty of reasoning and logic is that it is immune, like truth, to beliefs and wishful thinking?

You keep talking about your reasoning
and your own personal experience as
being evidence for god. What about my
friend Ed, the ex priest? He had experiences
different than yours. He felt the calling,
went to seminary, became a priest, did
mass thousands of times, heard thousands
of confessions, and eventually became an
atheist because he had been a priest.

Why is your testimony more valid than his?
You have dismissed his experience with a
wave of your hand many times. To me he's
just as valid a source as you are, why wouldn't
he be. You must understand that we have to
go by our OWN experiences, not somebody
elses. What you and Ed went thru is fine for
you and Ed. Nobody else.

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isn't reasoning the same no matter who is doing it?

So you think the reasoning of a mental
patient or a 10 year old or somebody
on death row is all the same? Why would
it be.

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I wonder if this is really true?

True for me because I work at it,
most others do not. I know a woman
that I can talk out of anything in
5 min, she has no trust in what she
believes. Many many people are
like that, we call them 'converts',
they are easily swayed by the convictions
of others.

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Who are the most unhappy people you know in your life or in the world? Isn't that person or people known to be selfish and egotistical and materialistic? Then think for a moment who are the happiest people you know in your life? Aren't they the ones that seem to help out others the most and care for others without even seeming to think of themselves first?

The unhappiest people I know are the
ones who feel they never get to do
anything just for themselves. They
are always at the beck and call of others.
They resent it and do it anyway and hate
their lives. There are people who are
happy living that life, though, because
it's what they want to be doing. Serving
others makes them feel good, they're
giving in to their selfishness.

Quote:

So do you think the homeless guy begging for money on the street is doing exactly what they want to be doing at that time?

Absolutely. And if it's not what they want
to be doing, they should work at finding
what they do want. In either case, how is
that any of my business. If you have respect
for the guy, you'll see that his private life
and thoughts are his, just like your's belong
to you. He's asking for money, an easy thing
to give. Who am I to intrude on his space
unasked.

Quote: FrGamble

You are childish in many ways.

How much time in purgatory would I get for suspending a priest for a personal insult?

Quote:

Your embrace of selfishness as your sole motivation for everything you do from porn to replacing septic tanks is kid like.

I must have missed a post somewhere. If EB enjoys replacing septic tanks, then I would say he is doing a service to society few people want to, but somebody has to.

Quote: Wizard

How much time in purgatory would I get for suspending a priest for a personal insult?

We already worked this out on our
own, no more personal insults.

Quote: Evenbob

We already worked this out on our
own, no more personal insults.

As long as nobody is pressing charges, I'll let it go with a warning.

Quote: Wizard

How much time in purgatory would I get for suspending a priest for a personal insult?

You may get more time in Valhalla :)

Quote: Evenbob

Hold on, that's proof of a miracle?
C'mon. ... What
they have a lack of something, which is
the same as nothing.

What the doctors are testifying to is not a miracle but that there is no medical explanation for what happened. They are also testifying to the timing of the healing so it can be matched up with an event or a prayer directly said for the person through the intercession of some saint. The doctors are precisely showing that there is a lack of scientific explanation. Then the Church has other witnesses that testify to the reasons why they think it is a supernatural miracle.

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That's my stance, something doesn't
exist until proof comes along that it
does.

What would be an example of proof for you? Do you require this proof for everything you think exists?

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You keep talking about your reasoning
and your own personal experience as
being evidence for god. What about my
friend Ed, the ex priest?

It was Ed's personal experience of God that led him to enter seminary and become a priest. It was Ed's personal experience of the brokenness of humanity that led him to leave the priesthood and lose his faith.

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Why is your testimony more valid than his?

It is not. At one point both Ed and you would have testified to God's existence. Now neither of you do and from what I can tell it seems to be for both of you because of the hypocrisy of other Christians and their poor example and teachings.

Also remember I am testifying to the existence of something not to something non-existence, which as we have already established is very difficult thing to do. I can point to real things in my life and real events, as you both could at one time as well. As an atheist all you can testify is to a feeling of nothingness or a non-presence. How do you prove that? How is that a valid testimony?

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So you think the reasoning of a mental
patient or a 10 year old or somebody
on death row is all the same? Why would
it be.

Because truth is truth and it will show itself as such. No matter who makes the argument if it has valid premises and the conclusion follows from it then it is true. No matter who says it, if it can be scientifically verified than it is true. I don't know if the reasoning would be the same but the truth is the truth.

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The unhappiest people I know are the
ones who feel they never get to do
anything just for themselves. They
are always at the beck and call of others.

Do you think they are in that position because someone else who should be helping is being selfish?

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Serving
others makes them feel good, they're
giving in to their selfishness.

Do you know anyone who is selfish and very unhappy?

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Absolutely. And if it's not what they want
to be doing, they should work at finding
what they do want.

Don't you think there might be some obstacles to the person working to find what they want to do?

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In either case, how is
that any of my business.

Because he is a fellow human being and if you were in the same situation you would want someone to do more than throw a few bucks at you.

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Who am I to intrude on his space
unasked.

Don't intrude just ask. Try it next time you run into someone asking for money. Sit down with them and ask their name. It will be real clear real quick if they think you are intruding or bothering them. I can guarantee you 9 times out of 10 the person would love to talk. They are ignored every day all day, human interaction and respect is worth more than a $10 bill.