The Holy Trinity

Quote: FrGamble

The obvious need for a non-contingent being goes back to Aristotle.

Who's 'obvious need', not mine. I
have no such need. When you suffer
from such a need, you look for ways
to fill it, like Aristotle did. For Aristotle,
the existence of the universe needs
an explanation, so he invented one.

The universe has been here forever,
no beginning and no end, no such
explanation is needed. When you
think you see a creation, like Aristotle
did, you try to fill in the blanks with
theories. And the problems begin..

Quote: aceofspades

This dinosaur is a non-contingent being

LOL! Good one, Ace..

Quote: Evenbob

The universe has been here forever,
no beginning and no end, no such
explanation is needed.

This is such a anti-scientific statement it boogles the mind.

What evidence do you have that the universe has been here forever? There is plenty of evidence that it has not.

Why is no explanation needed? You sound like a religious fanatic. I've met people like you who when confronted with evidence of things like evolution just say quote the Bible and say no explanation is needed. I slowly back away from people like that and like you.

Quote: Evenbob

The universe has been here forever,
no beginning and no end, no such
explanation is needed.

This is quite a strong statement. Astronomers have observed an expanding universe. If you work backwards, looking at the speed of expansion, you can date the universe to an approximate time and place of origin. Most people, both theists and not, who have looked at the science can agree on this. Where they differ is what, if anything, caused the beginning.

Quote: Wizard

This is quite a strong statement. Astronomers have observed an expanding universe. If you work backwards, looking at the speed of expansion, you can date the universe to an approximate time and place of origin. Most people, both theists and not, who have looked at the science can agree on this. Where they differ is what, if anything, caused the beginning.

Yeah what blows my mind (and I am sure blows people's minds who look to a "God/gods") is the question of -- what is the universe expanding into exactly?

Quote: Wizard

If you work backwards, looking at the speed of expansion, you can date the universe to an approximate time and place of origin..

That's the big bang, not the universe
the result of the big bang is in. That
universe has been here forever.
The oldest religion in the world,
Hinduism, believes the universe,
the part we live in, has come
into being countless times and
will continue forever.

We have always been here in one
form or another and always will
be. If you think about it, this makes
far more sense than a god who
creates and punishes and rewards.
That's a childlike view, one a nomad
would have had thousands of years
ago, who had no education and
no knowledge outside his tiny bit
of the world.

Quote: aceofspades

Yeah what blows my mind (and I am sure blows people's minds who look to a "God/gods") is the question of -- what is the universe expanding into exactly?

My favorite course in college was advanced astronomy. Really engaging teacher. This was in the mid 80's, so we may more know now. Anyway, as I recall, he broached this question but his answer was basically that we don't know but a "big crunch" was definitely a possibility, where after an expansion to a certain point everything gradually collapses back into a single point, perhaps causing a new Big Bang.

Quote: Evenbob

That's the big bang, not the universe
the result of the big bang is in. That
universe has been here forever.
The oldest religion in the world,
Hinduism, believes the universe,
the part we live in, has come
into being countless times and
will continue forever.

The observable universe is all we know. Perhaps there are lots of them, maybe in parallel dimensions. Who knows but we may as well only talk about what we can observe. What we can observe points to a big bang. As far as I know, we have not observed anything that exists outside of that.

Quote:

We have always been here in one
form or another and always will
be. If you think about it, this makes
far more sense than a god who
creates and punishes and rewards.
That's a childlike view, one a nomad
would have had thousands of years
ago, who had no education and
no knowledge outside his tiny bit
of the world.

The laws of quantum physics, which I cannot get into very deeply, allow for the spontaneous creation of matter. I think it requires that the same amount of anti-matter be created elsewhere, perhaps much further away.

If you're going to make an affirmative statement, then I think it is up to you to provide evidence behind it other than what is obvious to you. I'm asking for the evidence behind your explanation of the universe.

All this reminds me of a joke about two scientists sitting at a bar. I'm paraphrasing here.

Scientist 1: Did you know that the laws of quantum physics suggest there is a minute chance that a beautiful woman will appear spontaneously on this empty bar stool on the other side of me.
Scientist 2: If you want to talk to a beautiful woman, why not that one sitting by herself? Maybe she will be interested in you.
Scientist 1: Nah, what are the chances of that?

LOL at that joke Wiz -- good one

Quote: Wizard

If you're going to make an affirmative statement, then I think it is up to you to provide evidence behind it

It's the starting point. You assume the
universe (NOT the BB) has been here
forever and you try and find evidence
it hasn't. We know there was a BB that
resulted in the galaxies we can see.
But the place the BB occurred in, the
universe, what is that place. Have there
been other BB's that we don't know about
yet.

Trying to explain it all with stories wandering
nomads dreamed 10K years ago is a
pointless exercise. It's interesting that both
Buddhism and Hinduism say it's
all been here forever in one form or another.
We think we see creations, we think we see
beginnings and endings, when all we're
really seeing is an on going process.