The Bible God or Kali

Quote: Evenbob

Too bad none of it is really evidence that
a god exists. It's evidence for lots of things,
but just not that.

I'm so grateful you at least recognize it is evidence. That is a big step forward for you. I wonder what it is evidence of in your mind?

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I'm afraid lack of real evidence is all I have.
I use it for a lack of belief in other things
as well. Unicorns, leprechauns, space
alien abductions, the Easter Bunny. Lack
of real evidence is really all you need to
be a non believer, you know.

Lack of evidence may lead you not to believe, but it cannot logically or reasonably lead you to make conclusions such as there is no God. Is the only reason you don't believe in unicorns or the Easter Bunny really because there is a lack of evidence? Surely you can come up with other reasons or evidence that would point to our shared conclusion that there is no such thing.

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You've said this before and I always ask
you to give some examples of where I
got brainwashed into atheism. I can give
a dozen where a Christian gets it, but am
stymied where my head could have been
filled with atheistic ideas. Enlighten me.

Something must have happened to move you from a neutral position to a position of atheism. As you have said you find no evidence either way. When someone makes a conclusion based on zero evidence it is usually a case of brainwashing. Look at our culture today for one possible source of such brainwashing. We work very hard now a days to keep God out of the public square, out of television, our entertainment, we remove memorials with crosses or the Ten Commandments, we are fed the line often that believers are unintelligent and backwards.

Quote: Aussie

How does there being the historical person Jesus prove there is a god? All that proves is that there was someone by that name, around that time who was worshipped by a few people. There was the historic person Jim Jones too. He has as much claim to the title as any number of whack jobs over the years.

I think the poem One Solitary Life might do a good job to explain it:

He was born in an obscure village
The child of a peasant woman
He grew up in another obscure village
Where he worked in a carpenter shop
Until he was thirty when public opinion turned against him

He never wrote a book
He never held an office
He never went to college
He never visited a big city
He never travelled more than two hundred miles
From the place where he was born
He did none of the things
Usually associated with greatness
He had no credentials but himself

He was only thirty three

His friends ran away
One of them denied him
He was turned over to his enemies
And went through the mockery of a trial
He was nailed to a cross between two thieves
While dying, his executioners gambled for his clothing
The only property he had on earth

When he was dead
He was laid in a borrowed grave
Through the pity of a friend

Nineteen centuries have come and gone
And today Jesus is the central figure of the human race
And the leader of mankind's progress
All the armies that have ever marched
All the navies that have ever sailed
All the parliaments that have ever sat
All the kings that ever reigned put together
Have not affected the life of mankind on earth
As powerfully as that one solitary life

Quote: Nareed

Let's go with that. How about the much better documented historical persons of Gaius Julius Caesar and Gaius Caesar Augustus? they were both deified after their untimely deaths (and hey¡ One of them was assassinated by Romans!!), and they've had a much bigger influence on the world than Jesus. How? Simple. Much of the world runs on Roman-based law. That wouldn't have happened without these pushy gentlemen establishing an empire, which planted Roman law over Europe, the Mideast and Northern Africa. Later on Spain, France, Holland, Portugal and mostly Britain spread it to the rest of the world.

I had to laugh a little bit about this. As a reasonable person and as a historian do you really think this is true? A legal system that had its basis in common sense practices that were in place before the Romans and adopted and made famous by them is the most influential thing in history. More so than the largest religion on the face of the Earth that improved the legal system you mentioned and is responsible for the development of many of the greatest works of art, architecture, music, scientific discovery and its method, the university system, hospitals, orphanages, works of mercy and charity, heck even our years are dated based on the life of Jesus Christ. And all this because of a simple man who claimed to be God, had a public ministry of three years, was crucified by the Romans, and appeared Resurrected to His disciples, who themselves were simple men and women mostly poor and uneducated.

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If science pointed towards it, most scientists would be religious rather than atheist. In particular this would be true among physicists and cosmologists, who spend much of their time thinking about the most intimate nature of the universe and the Big Bang. And this is where you find the most atheists, for whom "God" is a mere figure of speech.

As you continue to prove scientists make lousy philosophers. Also you should not discount the many strong believers in these fields, including the priest who proved the expanding universe and the theory of the Big Bang.

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How many more billions would "testify" about subjective feelings to other gods, or no gods? This is like saying chocolate is the best because you like it.

And everyone knows Coffee is the Best :)

Coffee is the best, I agree.

What though does it tell you or point to that so many billions of people testify to the reality of a god or gods in their lives?

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If we don't know what something is, let's call it "God."

I'm not just talking about the supernatural things and miracles we don't understand. I'm also talking about the many miracles that are directly attributable to God like at Lourdes. I am also talking about pretty clear and unmistakable supernatural experiences like possessions, hauntings, and exorcisms.

Quote: FrGamble

I think the poem One Solitary Life might do a good job to explain it:

He was born in an obscure village
The child of a peasant woman
He grew up in another obscure village
Where he worked in a carpenter shop
Until he was thirty when public opinion turned against him

He never wrote a book
He never held an office
He never went to college
He never visited a big city
He never travelled more than two hundred miles
From the place where he was born
He did none of the things
Usually associated with greatness
He had no credentials but himself

He was only thirty three

His friends ran away
One of them denied him
He was turned over to his enemies
And went through the mockery of a trial
He was nailed to a cross between two thieves
While dying, his executioners gambled for his clothing
The only property he had on earth

When he was dead
He was laid in a borrowed grave
Through the pity of a friend

Nineteen centuries have come and gone
And today Jesus is the central figure of the human race
And the leader of mankind's progress
All the armies that have ever marched
All the navies that have ever sailed
All the parliaments that have ever sat
All the kings that ever reigned put together
Have not affected the life of mankind on earth
As powerfully as that one solitary life

That's a fabulous story (some true some not) but still doesn't prove a thing.

Quote: FrGamble

That is a big step forward for you. I wonder what it is evidence of in your mind?

I love it when you're condescending, it's sooo
Catholic Church. It's obviously evidence that
myths can still be useful, but it's not evidence
that any of it is true. I would completely agree
with a lot of what you say if you told the truth
that it was really just a useful myth. I would
say giving people communion is very nice if
it makes them feel like part of the community.
Telling them it's real blood and real flesh is
just bizarre, it's takes away from whatever benefit
the ceremony might have.

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Lack of evidence may lead you not to believe, but it cannot logically or reasonably lead you to make conclusions such as there is no God.

Sure it can. Especially over a 40 year period.
If I was 19, I would probably be an agnostic.
But the more you study, and the more time
that goes by, that there is no god at all
becomes obvious.

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We work very hard now a days to keep God out of the public square, out of television, our entertainment, we remove memorials with crosses or the Ten Commandments, we are fed the line often that believers are unintelligent and backwards.

Lack of information doesn't fall in the brainwashing
category. I never hear Zeus or Apollo mentioned
anywhere, does that mean I've been brainwashed
about them not existing? I can't recall ever hearing
that believers are dumb and backwards. Have people
actually said that to your face? You don't seem that
way at all, most Christians I know are just average people.

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Have not affected the life of mankind on earth
As powerfully as that one solitary life

It just shows what having a huge public
relations firm behind you for 1500 years
can do for your image. It's what the PR
firm invented about Jesus (and continues
to invent) that kept him in the spotlight.
Having Crusades and Inquisitions that forced
people into converting didn't hurt either.

Jesus would be appalled if could see the
history of the religion founded in his name.

Quote: FrGamble

As a reasonable person and as a historian do you really think this is true?

I'm not a historian and have never claimed to be. Just the same, I know this to be true. It's very well documented.

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A legal system that had its basis in common sense practices that were in place before the Romans and adopted and made famous by them is the most influential thing in history.

While the Romans borrowed a great deal culturally from Greece, enough so that we're still a Greco-Roman civilization, their legal system, including limited government and checks and balances, has had an enduring influence on the world as I described previously. Why are many fundamental legal terms still expressed in Latin? Do you think "We The People" is a relatively modern development? What then was "The Senate and People of Rome"? It goes back 2200 years. Why did we have a Renaissance only when Greco-Roman culture was recovered? Why did the US Founding Fathers consult Roman legal practices, including Justinian's "Corpus Juris Civilis"?

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More so than the largest religion on the face of the Earth

Much more.

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I'm not just talking about the supernatural things and miracles we don't understand. I'm also talking about the many miracles that are directly attributable to God like at Lourdes. I am also talking about pretty clear and unmistakable supernatural experiences like possessions, hauntings, and exorcisms.

Yeah, if we can't explain something, we call it "God."

So, there's this bridge....

Quote: Aussie

That's a fabulous story (some true some not) but still doesn't prove a thing.

I've found the religious mind set assumes the repetition of a story will make you fall on your knees and beg a deity for something or other.

Quote: FrGamble

As you continue to prove scientists make lousy philosophers.

I'm adding "philosophy" to the list of words you keep using that don't mean what you think they mean.

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Also you should not discount the many strong believers in these fields, including the priest who proved the expanding universe and the theory of the Big Bang.

Lemaitre was a remarkable man and scientist, despite his religious beliefs.

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Coffee is the best, I agree.

And now I'm wondering what's wrong with coffee....

Quote: Evenbob

It's obviously evidence that
myths can still be useful, but it's not evidence
that any of it is true. I would completely agree
with a lot of what you say if you told the truth
that it was really just a useful myth.

The truth is that what you consider a false myth is true and that is why the evidence shows that Jesus Christ is so beneficial to society.

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Sure it can. Especially over a 40 year period.
If I was 19, I would probably be an agnostic.
But the more you study, and the more time
that goes by, that there is no god at all
becomes obvious.

You refuse to answer what is it that makes this so obvious. Why does time without any evidence lead you to atheism and not to belief in God?