The "problem" of evil

What are you talking about? You are just getting weird.

Quote: FrGamble

What would be more accurate is to say that God gave us a free choice to love and care for others. If you don't do this you will be unhappy in this life and lose the gift of Heaven. God is not going to send anyone to hell, we send ourselves there.

You make the same rationale of a serial abuser. Or a serial rapist. Or anyone who claims other people did things to themselves because they didn't follow the abuser's rules.

Your god is setting the conditions and calling the fouls as he sees fit. It's not a fair game and it's not free will.

Anyway, FrGamble not sure how many times I see you making excuses for your god that no normal person would make in other circumstances.

I think you should at least extend the courtesy to the rest of us human beings.

Like someone tells you they drove by someone in a lake who looked to be drowning.

You ask them if they stopped to try to help.

"No, looked like they fell through thin ice. I think they didn't make sure to check how thick the ice was. They brought it on themselves, I didn't do anything. Pretty sure they drowned."

FrGamble "Okay, fine. You are blessed. God sometimes saves people, then sometimes he lets them drown. You did the right thing."

In fact, one can cite the Holocaust where god watched it go down. Or maybe in your twisted way, you can say God saved 3 million more who would have been gassed had god not beaten Hitler. So, there you go, had it not been for god, 9 million would have died in the camps instead of 6. Praise God!

Quote: rxwine

You make the same rationale of a serial abuser. Or a serial rapist. Or anyone who claims other people did things to themselves because they didn't follow the abuser's rules.

That's how the Christian god often comes across in the Bible. I think you're supposed to be so terrified of him, that you'd better love him or else!

He wouldn't spend so much time instilling fear in your heart if he didn't love, would he?

Quote: FrGamble

Just answer the questions. Do YOU really believe that none of these other ancient religions and Native American religions had no concept of sin or offending their deity by the actions people took like raping, killing, lying, or slaughtering a buffalo for no reason? Do YOU really think that children do not learn the reality of doing wrong by offending their parents and getting punished? Is that part of human life and one of our basic lessons? I think we both know you are wrong and you just won't admit it.

This is one of the times I feel like you're drifting away from religion and into spirituality, and I just wish you (and every one here) would carry on with it. But since you asked, and I at least know the Native answer,...

The Iroquois, of which I am a part and existed in these very parts, had one of the most advanced civilizations and cultures of all the indigenous people, surpassed only by the Aztecs and Mayans way south. They certainly had fables that dealt with this topic, no different than Aesop or the Jesus. One such is about a sparrow who could not make the trip south. He asked all the trees for shelter, all of whom declined except for the lowly pine. Though it had the tiniest leaves, it harbored the sparrow and the sparrow survived the winter. As punishment, Ha:wen:ne:yu strips the leaves off all trees every year, save the pine. It's a simple fable, but one which teaches against selfishness. There are plenty of such tales, from the naked tail of the possum which speaks about boastfulness, to the flat tail of the beaver which speaks to pride.

But nowhere in their culture did there exist sin. While plenty was spoken about Ha:wen:ne:yu and His lesser spirits, the activities of the gods were thought to be beyond their ken. Other tribes such as the Dakota didn't believe in a separation at all, that nature and the supernatural were one in the same. These people didn't even have prisons, let alone a Hell. What they did have was elaborate stories meant to explain the world around them and influence the people toward positive actions, despite the fact that said stories, while good and sometimes even beautiful, were nothing but horse flop from a fact v. fiction perspective.

Quote: Face

This is one of the times I feel like you're drifting away from religion and into spirituality, and I just wish you (and every one here) would carry on with it. But since you asked, and I at least know the Native answer,...

The Iroquois, of which I am a part and existed in these very parts, had one of the most advanced civilizations and cultures of all the indigenous people, surpassed only by the Aztecs and Mayans way south. They certainly had fables that dealt with this topic, no different than Aesop or the Jesus. One such is about a sparrow who could not make the trip south. He asked all the trees for shelter, all of whom declined except for the lowly pine. Though it had the tiniest leaves, it harbored the sparrow and the sparrow survived the winter. As punishment, Ha:wen:ne:yu strips the leaves off all trees every year, save the pine. It's a simple fable, but one which teaches against selfishness. There are plenty of such tales, from the naked tail of the possum which speaks about boastfulness, to the flat tail of the beaver which speaks to pride.

But nowhere in their culture did there exist sin. While plenty was spoken about Ha:wen:ne:yu and His lesser spirits, the activities of the gods were thought to be beyond their ken. Other tribes such as the Dakota didn't believe in a separation at all, that nature and the supernatural were one in the same. These people didn't even have prisons, let alone a Hell. What they did have was elaborate stories meant to explain the world around them and influence the people toward positive actions, despite the fact that said stories, while good and sometimes even beautiful, were nothing but horse flop from a fact v. fiction perspective.

Heh, I like this better. Too bad they weren't able to successfully force it down the new invading immigrant's throats.

Quote: rxwine

Heh, I like this better. Too bad they weren't able to successfully force it down the new invading immigrant's throats.

That's what chaps my ass, especially when dear father tries to use the "Athiests = bloodiest century ever" argument. When you go to Holland, you see a lot of Dutch people. Go to Sweden, loaded with Swedes. India? Indians for dayyys. Yet in the west... how many Seneca you know (besides me)? Dakota? Lakota? Seminole? I wonder how many Aztecs or Mayans Nareed deals with day in and out. What even is the word "Hello" in Aztec?

Even if Hitler was an atheist (he wasn't), 3-6 million Jews, gays, and mental defectives pales in comparison to the ten and tens and tens of millions of indigenous Americans who lost life, language and land at the hands of white, European, Christians. An entire hemisphere of culture, language, arts, lifestyle, life. Gone.

God works in mysterious ways, indeed.

Quote: Face

But nowhere in their culture did there exist sin.

Sin doesn't exist in most cultures, that you
can offend a god with your thoughts or
deeds. That the god will reward or punish
you. The Hindus have Karma, but that has
nothing to do with god. You pay for your
misdeeds in the next life. Sin is a gimmick
to put you into a box from which there
is no escape. But wait, there is one after
all, see how that works?

Quote: Face

God works in mysterious ways, indeed.

It's more like men who use god as
an excuse work like greedy blood
thirsty hooligans every chance they
get.

Quote: Face

Even if Hitler was an atheist (he wasn't), 3-6 million Jews, gays, and mental defectives pales in comparison to the ten and tens and tens of millions of indigenous Americans who lost life, language and land at the hands of white, European, Christians. An entire hemisphere of culture, language, arts, lifestyle, life. Gone.

The exact numbers are hard to come by. But there's no doubt large percentages of the native populations perished.

However, most of these were do to diseases the Europeans brought with them. This is not something they could have foreseen or avoided. Yes, there are records that sometimes they deliberately tried to infect the native peoples, but the death toll would have been immense even without these efforts. And if you want equivalence, 1/3 of Europe's population died in the Black Plague, which very likely came from Asia in trade ships. Awful as these things are, they were also the kind of things that happened in those times.

Where the Europeans can be condemned is how they treated the natives. In particular the outright displacement and genocide carried out by the US after independence from Britain. It's worse to think one man responsible for a lot of misery and death, Andrew Jackson, is honored in the $20 note (not to mention he blatantly disregarded a Supreme Court ruling doing so).

And also there's how the European conquerors (and keep in mind Spain and Portugal outright conquered all of Latin America) dealt with the consequences of the high death rate among the natives. They imported slaves from Africa, and in many places just about worked them to death.

So yes, Christians have done way worse.