The "problem" of evil

Quote: Evenbob

Where in seminary did they teach you that
you're god. I thought you were a worshiper
of a god, not a god himself.

You don't have to be God to see when someone is struggling to direct their frustration or anger about being called out on something. Look I am not judging anyone, just stating a fact that may or may not pertain to you. A selfish lifestyle in pursuit of pleasure, money, power, or fame will not lead to true and lasting happiness. A life focused on God and others with a willingness to serve and help others is a life that leads to fulfillment and peace.

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Imagine a self centered egotist like yourself,
full of pride and self righteous hubris,

I am non of those things and I resent you saying I am.

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imagine
yourself unleashed on a native culture with
no constraints, nothing to hold you back from
molding the poor people into whatever twisted
shape you wanted.

Your language is vile and warped, you can feel how angry you are why? I wouldn't want to twist anyone. I would want to show them how they were loved unconditionally by God who lived a poor and simple life like them and died for our sins but who has conquered even death so they have nothing to fear. I would help them in their work and share any advancements in technology and education I had from where I was from.

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If you can imagine that, you'll
realize why the world eventually stopped the Church
from being the monster it was.

I can imagine that which I described above and it was the reality for a large number of missionaries. Why is this being a monster?

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I wouldn't want to twist anyone. I would want to show them how they were loved unconditionally by God

And there it is, this vile judgemental
thing the Church labels as 'love', when
it is anything but. It's controlling, it
diminishes people, it frightens them
into depending on religious leaders
who say they want what's best for
them, but really want what's best
for the Church. It's the opposite of
what real love is.

A really good takedown on not-so-good theodicy:

http://scienceblogs.com/evolutionblog/2006/05/31/dembskis-theodicy/

I thought it clever to claim that Jehovah would act in the past to conform it to the future, but it's also rather moronic. Why not prevent the bad future Jehovah knows is coming?

Quote: Nareed

A really good takedown on not-so-good theodicy:

http://scienceblogs.com/evolutionblog/2006/05/31/dembskis-theodicy/

I thought it clever to claim that Jehovah would act in the past to conform it to the future, but it's also rather moronic. Why not prevent the bad future Jehovah knows is coming?

That is an excellent blog post.

My first point is that the author's response to the problem of evil leading to atheism is not acceptable. He even says at one point that this problem has led him to not believe in an all-powerful and all-loving God, but that is not the same as atheism. I don't think he realizes what a radical mistake it is to hold atheism, even in regard to the problem of evil. It is not logical to use this to reject the notion of God. As he does you can use it to challenge the Christian concept of God, but God still remains a logical necessity for the existence of life.

Secondly, I don't think any of us can really ever overestimate the destructive power of human sin. Hatred, violence, greed, the thirst for power, treating other human beings as objects or tools, has the destructive force equal to all the hurricanes and earthquakes we could ever experience. These acts of human evil effect us in much different ways than disasters that happen because of nature. In fact the impact of these disasters is always made worse by the conditions of our society because of these human sins. Forcing poor farmers to work their farms on poor land on the side of volcanoes, building huge cities in flood plains or on top of beaches, the poor not having adequate building materials, etc.

Thirdly, I'm going to the hospital tomorrow to be with a family as they deliver a still born baby with serious complications. I have no answer to there inevitable why? Nor does anyone else. Is the idea that this child is just random chance and that this shouldn't cause us anymore pain or joy than if the baby was born healthy an answer? The idea that the apparent randomness of life and the suffering it leaves in its wake is consoling does not ring true to anyone who has a child with deformities or have walked the journey with those who do. The only answer that helps and rings true is that this child, even its short life in uterueo, is precious and holds great value as a unique life loved by God. That the injustice this poor child received is not do to random meaningless chance, but to something wrong with this world. That God and God alone can rectify this for this child and for all of us in the perfection that we have never experienced but long for.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think he realizes what a radical mistake it is to hold atheism

Yes, atheists give very little money to the Church.

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God still remains a logical necessity for the existence of life.

I love how you state opinions as axioms, like
just saying it makes it true.

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I don't think any of us can really ever overestimate the destructive power of human sin

Sin doesn't exist, so it has no power at
all. It has power over you as a concept
because it fits with the reality you're
creating for yourself.

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Thirdly, I'm going to the hospital tomorrow to be with a family as they deliver a still born baby with serious complications.

Stillborn means a baby has died in
the womb and is born dead. You
must mean the mother has
serious conditions.

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That the injustice this poor child received is not do to random meaningless chance

Of course it was random chance, how else.
Two other major religions will tell you that
you grieve and move on, knowing that the
soul of the baby will be born somewhere
else. Nothing very mysterious, just everyday
life. Why you choose to make it worse by
turning it into religious melodrama is what
turns so many off to your Church. The way
you worship death is majorly off putting.

Quote: Evenbob

Sin doesn't exist,

You keep saying this without saying why you think this. What is your evidence that sin doesn't exist?

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Two other major religions will tell you that
you grieve and move on, knowing that the
soul of the baby will be born somewhere
else. Nothing very mysterious, just everyday
life. Why you choose to make it worse by
turning it into religious melodrama is what
turns so many off to your Church. The way
you worship death is majorly off putting.

If they are right why grieve in the first place? Wouldn't those religions also say that eliminating your passions and emotions is the source of true happiness and peace? How could the invisible soul of a child being born somewhere else not be mysterious? How is that not supernatural and how is that comforting? Are you saying the soul of this poor baby could be born into a much worse situation and that we should be comforted by this? Whether you like it or not this is a deep and tragic drama one that you cannot respond blithely to. I worship love (God) who triumphs over death and gives us true hope.

Quote: FrGamble

You keep saying this without saying why you think this. What is your evidence that sin doesn't exist?

See if this rings any bells, I've said it a dozen
times at least. A sin is an offense against
god. There is no god to offend so there
is no sin.

sin1
sin/
1.
an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law... Sin is any deliberate action, attitude, or thought that goes against God

Now you'll go on your usual tangent that
sin is many many other things too. But
the only ones that count are the sins
against god, because they offend him.
But there is no god, so sin is just another
word. Any of that sound familiar, I've said
it often enough.

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If they are right why grieve in the first place?

Why do Christians, shouldn't they be rejoicing
that the baby is in heaven? It's human nature,
even animals grieve.

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Are you saying the soul of this poor baby could be born into a much worse situation and that we should be comforted by this?

Why do you think god and heaven were
invented. Reality is much more sobering.
A fairy tale is much easier to swallow. The
universe is what it is, and you are part of
it. If you choose to indulge in fantasy
while you're here, it makes no difference.
Why do you think the reincarnation religions
have no missionaries. They have no pleasant
fantasies to sell, only reality.

Quote: FrGamble

My first point is that the author's response to the problem of evil leading to atheism is not acceptable.

Who died and made you God? Why do you think it's your place to determine what's acceptable for other people?

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Is the idea that this child is just random chance and that this shouldn't cause us anymore pain or joy than if the baby was born healthy an answer?

It would be if humanity were the bunch of morons without three brain cells to rub together you are implying we are.

The cause of something plays little part in how the that something affects people. An event may be random chance and its effects terrible, or its effects might be wonderful, or they might be of little import. The same goes for deliberate events, too.

Therefore when you say "oh, it's a random chance thing, let's be as happy when it's terrible as when it's wonderful," you're assuming no intelligence on the receiving end of your pronouncements.

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That the injustice this poor child received is not do to random meaningless chance, but to something wrong with this world.

Great idea. Tell the parents it was their fault.

Really, one day you may realize other people have working brains.

Quote: Evenbob

A sin is an offense against
god. There is no god to offend so there
is no sin.

I thought you had moved on from this circular reasoning. Anyway, it doesn't matter because what you seem to be saying is that this is just a semantic issue. If you removed the God part of the definition of sin than it would exist for you, correct? Would you agree that mankind struggles with committing immoral acts?

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Why do you think the reincarnation religions
have no missionaries. They have no pleasant
fantasies to sell, only reality.

it is not just that the teaching is repugnant, it is also not true. Is all you have for evidence a few studies that have not gained universal acceptance by the scientific community? Why do you believe in reincarnation with such flimsy evidence. I agree it is evidence, but it is shaky and can certainly be questioned.

Quote: Nareed

Who died and made you God? Why do you think it's your place to determine what's acceptable for other people?

I meant acceptable in regards to strict logic. In regards to people's opinions and emotions not only do I accept that possibility of atheism I can even understand it. However, for a very well written and thought our article it was a failure of his to just gloss over the fact that the problem of evil led him to atheism when that is far from a logical conclusion.

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The cause of something plays little part in how the that something affects people. An event may be random chance and its effects terrible, or its effects might be wonderful, or they might be of little import. The same goes for deliberate events, too.

You are correct. I sometimes think like Spock and not very human like. The reality is that no matter how the milk spilled it is something we cry over. Do you think though that if you could create a world where the influence of religion was removed that you would be able to have humans be totally unmoved by different events including death because it is all just random and in the end not significant. What I mean to ask and it is just a thought experiment; if all we have is our short time on earth and all things are random chance do you think that eventually we would be able to not allow the "sad" things to effect us so it maximizes our short "happiness" on Earth? Or do you think that the idea of suffering and tragedy having no meaning or possible value is too impossible for us as human beings to deal with? Is the notion that a little child suffers and there is no ultimate justice and nothing to learn form it and nothing to hope for in the future is too hard for any human being to deal with?

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Therefore when you say "oh, it's a random chance thing, let's be as happy when it's terrible as when it's wonderful," you're assuming no intelligence on the receiving end of your pronouncements.

Your right, when I play craps I get excited for a long roll and bummed out when I get set up and the Big Red comes out.

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Great idea. Tell the parents it was their fault.

It's not their fault anymore than it was the fault of an innocent no slave owning child killing Egyptian family when they lost their first born son. It doesn't have to be their fault for there to be something gravely wrong with the world.