The "problem" of evil

The difference between creating a punishment if you do not worship someone and creating a free will choice where you punish them if they don't worship you is the same.

Example

If you do not worship me I will send you to Hell.

I give you a free choice to worship me, but if you do not I will send you to Hell.

Quote: FrGamble

Anyway, it doesn't matter because what you seem to be saying is that this is just a semantic issue.

The missionaries of the Church had
a devil of a time making native
cultures understand what sin was.
That their thoughts or actions could
so offend god that he would punish
them for it. They eventually gave up
and started schools and taught the
kids. Sin is just a concept, and a convoluted
one at that. It doesn't exist.

Quote:

Why do you believe in reincarnation with such flimsy evidence. I agree it is evidence, but it is shaky and can certainly be questioned.

So question it, who cares. I've believed
in reincarnation since the 70's, this is just
icing on the cake. It happens whatever
your belief about it is. It's as natural as
stepping off a cliff, you're going to fall
no matter what your opinion of the cliff
is. What did you think, I read an article
last year and latched onto this? I used
to be a member of Self Realization
Fellowship for years, in the 70's and 80's.

Paramahansa Yogananda was the leader.
He died many decades ago, but his followers
carry on his work. I spent many wonderful
weekends at their yoga retreat in N MI, Song
of the Morning Ranch. I eventually grew out
of it and moved on.

Quote: FrGamble

However, for a very well written and thought our article it was a failure of his to just gloss over the fact that the problem of evil led him to atheism when that is far from a logical conclusion.

Jason, the blogger in question, is not obligated to justify his atheism in every post. He does it in several other posts all over his blog. I can tell you because I've been reading a lot of it. Perhaps as much as 90% of his posts relating to religion. I like his arguments and have learned a lot from him.

Quote:

Do you think though that if you could create a world where the influence of religion was removed that you would be able to have humans be totally unmoved by different events including death because it is all just random and in the end not significant.

Why would you try to admit to a mistake and then repeat it in the very next sentence? If you need a crutch to make yourself believe human life is meaningful, that's your problem. But don't try to ascribe your inadequacies to everyone who has been spared delusions about gods and the supernatural.

In fact, I have a question for you: if you really believe a dead person is going to heaven and will bask in the presence of your three gods, why are you sad when someone dies? Shouldn't you be happy about it? Shouldn't you celebrate any and all deaths?

Quote:

It's not their fault anymore than it was the fault of an innocent no slave owning child killing Egyptian family when they lost their first born son. It doesn't have to be their fault for there to be something gravely wrong with the world.

So it's not their fault all the way, just the proportional wrongness of the world they're responsible for?

That ought to make them feel much better.

Quote: rxwine

The difference between creating a punishment if you do not worship someone and creating a free will choice where you punish them if they don't worship you is the same.

Example

If you do not worship me I will send you to Hell.

This is not true.

Quote:

I give you a free choice to worship me, but if you do not I will send you to Hell.

What would be more accurate is to say that God gave us a free choice to love and care for others. If you don't do this you will be unhappy in this life and lose the gift of Heaven. God is not going to send anyone to hell, we send ourselves there.

Quote: Evenbob

The missionaries of the Church had
a devil of a time making native
cultures understand what sin was.
That their thoughts or actions could
so offend god that he would punish
them for it. They eventually gave up
and started schools and taught the
kids. Sin is just a concept, and a convoluted
one at that. It doesn't exist.

You keep repeating this although it is wrong. Every culture that worshiped a deity of any kind knew the reality of sin. They knew implicitly that the thoughts and the actions that they produce could and did offend God, the Great Spirit, Mother Nature, whatever. This is one of the most common parts of every religion, even secular religions like the communist state understood this. In fact outside of schools we learn this in regards to our parents. They love us and have authority over us and we know that when we do wrong we offend them and get punished for it.

If you take out the part about offending God do you realize that human beings struggle with committing immoral acts?

Quote: FrGamble

God is not going to send anyone to hell, we send ourselves there.

If Jehovah didn't want anyone sent to Hell, why did he create it? Why did he set up laws to obey which carry Hell as punishment for disobedience?

Look, in the real world, we send people to prison. You can argue that a criminal who knowingly violates the law sends himself to prison, but that's disingenuous.

Other people made the law, the prisons, the legal system to adjudicate violations of the law, and most people in society support the law, the prisons and the system. The only question is whether the law and the system go too far (I've no question they both do), but not whether the law or the system should even exist. The agreement for the latter is as nearly universal as anything political can be.

So who sends criminals to prison?

We all do.

The only difference between human and "divine" conception of justice, is that in the latter there is no due process, nor a right to mount a defense or to face one's accusers.

Quote: Nareed

Jason, the blogger in question, is not obligated to justify his atheism in every post. He does it in several other posts all over his blog. I can tell you because I've been reading a lot of it. Perhaps as much as 90% of his posts relating to religion. I like his arguments and have learned a lot from him.

I would be curious about why he is an atheist then and why he thinks there is no God. Maybe you can link to one of his posts about that or send me a link.

Quote:

Why would you try to admit to a mistake and then repeat it in the very next sentence? If you need a crutch to make yourself believe human life is meaningful, that's your problem. But don't try to ascribe your inadequacies to everyone who has been spared delusions about gods and the supernatural.

No one should need a crutch to believe that human life is meaningful.

Quote:

In fact, I have a question for you: if you really believe a dead person is going to heaven and will bask in the presence of your three gods, why are you sad when someone dies? Shouldn't you be happy about it? Shouldn't you celebrate any and all deaths?

Death is always sad but our faith does give us hope in the gift of eternal life. It tempers the sadness with the fact that one day we shall see them again and that our beloved dead are in the arms of a loving God.

Quote:

So it's not their fault all the way, just the proportional wrongness of the world they're responsible for?

What you don't seem to be grasping is that sin effects us all, there is no use in trying to pin some responsibility of the brokenness of our world on any person, we are all in the same boat. However, the Lord has freed us from the guilt of sin and giving us the hope of being carried safely to our true and lasting home, which is not found here.

Quote: Nareed

If Jehovah didn't want anyone sent to Hell, why did he create it? Why did he set up laws to obey which carry Hell as punishment for disobedience?

Look, in the real world, we send people to prison. You can argue that a criminal who knowingly violates the law sends himself to prison, but that's disingenuous.

Other people made the law, the prisons, the legal system to adjudicate violations of the law, and most people in society support the law, the prisons and the system. The only question is whether the law and the system go too far (I've no question they both do), but not whether the law or the system should even exist. The agreement for the latter is as nearly universal as anything political can be.

So who sends criminals to prison?

We all do.

The only difference between human and "divine" conception of justice, is that in the latter there is no due process, nor a right to mount a defense or to face one's accusers.

Hell is not created for us but it is a real place for those who choose to go there. This is a consequence of free will, God will never send you to Hell nor will He ever force you to go to Heaven.

Why do we make these laws that would send someone to prison? They are to protect the common good and to teach in some ways what is right and what is wrong. Good and moral laws reflect what we already know to be true and good for people. God's laws are for our good and the good of the community as well and they are all things we know already through natural reason and our conscience.

There is due process and unimaginable mercy on the part of God's divine law. Our conscience is our advocate and we have a judge who knows our heart and loves us very much. You have a chance to face your accuser, the accuser is yourself - we know when we do wrong and have to deal with it in ourselves.

Quote: FrGamble

You keep repeating this although it is wrong.

And yet another road I'm not going down
again with you. I'll perform the due diligence,
find source after source that proves my points,
you'll pooh-pooh it all, say it's wrong, and
say what you always say. It's just not worth
my time again, you're a brainwashed brick
wall.

Quote: Evenbob

And yet another road I'm not going down
again with you. I'll perform the due diligence,
find source after source that proves my points,
you'll pooh-pooh it all, say it's wrong, and
say what you always say. It's just not worth
my time again, you're a brainwashed brick
wall.

To me it just sounds like you are giving up. You don't need to go back and cite all your sources, they weren't convincing the first time. Just answer the questions. Do YOU really believe that none of these other ancient religions and Native American religions had no concept of sin or offending their deity by the actions people took like raping, killing, lying, or slaughtering a buffalo for no reason? Do YOU really think that children do not learn the reality of doing wrong by offending their parents and getting punished? Is that part of human life and one of our basic lessons? I think we both know you are wrong and you just won't admit it.