Simple question?

Quote: Evenbob

Just as many times as I was led the wrong
way or the impossible situation never
worked out.

Nobody says things are supposed to work out every time.

Quote: AZDuffman

Nobody says things are supposed to work out every time.

You're losing your point. It's obviously random
outcomes if as many work out as don't. To blame
the ones that work out on god just means you
don't understand how random works.

Quote: Evenbob

You're losing your point. It's obviously random
outcomes if as many work out as don't. To blame
the ones that work out on god just means you
don't understand how random works.

I am not losing anything. The point is that if this life was paradise there would be no need for Heaven.

Quote: AZDuffman

I am not losing anything. The point is that if this life was paradise there would be no need for Heaven.

And if I could fly, I wouldn't need a plane.
Heaven is a silly fantasy, right up there
with Santa. Do good things, behave, and
you will be rewarded. In the Old Testament
heaven and going there is not really talked
about. Heaven and hell are pretty much
ignored. These are concepts dreamed up
by the giddy writers of the NT, look it up.

Quote: Evenbob

And if I could fly, I wouldn't need a plane.
Heaven is a silly fantasy, right up there
with Santa. Do good things, behave, and
you will be rewarded. In the Old Testament
heaven and going there is not really talked
about. Heaven and hell are pretty much
ignored. These are concepts dreamed up
by the giddy writers of the NT, look it up.

So because it was not written about in the OT it cannot exist?

Quote: AZDuffman

So because it was not written about in the OT it cannot exist?

The point is, why wasn't it written about in
the OT. This is the scripture of the Jews, it's
what Jesus taught from, supposedly. There
is nothing in it about people going to heaven
or hell. It's all about god rewarding and punishing
in the here and now.

Doesn't that seem odd to you? Where is the heaven
with the angels singing and people being tormented
in hell forever. I'm sure FrG will have all kinds of BS
reasons, it's 'progressive revelation' or some other
nonsense. What it looks like is, heaven and hell were
established to sell the new religion. And the more
descriptive it got, the easier the sale was. Throw in
Purgatory and now we're talking.

Quote: Nareed

"Saved" from what? How does an execution constitute atonement, and for what? Never mind for whom. Atonement is non-transferable.

I think "saved" is not used in the bible but is a term often used by Christians as an adjective to describe a state of grace. They mean saved from a fate in hell.

I think a Christian would argue that the punishment for committing even one sin is eternal separation from god. However, there is a tradition of sacrificing animals in the old testament to put the blame on them for the sin. Why -- I have no idea. This concept is extended in Christianity to Jesus being the scapegoat for all future sin. However, you have to be a believer/follower to get the benefit.

Personally, I much prefer the Catholic paradigm, where your fate is more a product of your actions here on earth than what you profess to believe.

Quote: Wizard

Personally, I much prefer the Catholic paradigm, where your fate is more a product of your actions here on earth than what you profess to believe.

It surely beats the "predestined" thing some sects have. When I heard that for the first time I was amazed.

Quote: Wizard

.
Personally, I much prefer the Catholic paradigm, where your fate is more a product of your actions here on earth

And you pay for them here and
now. Or you don't. That's why
this religion is appealing. It drives
people crazy when others 'get away'
with certain things and nothing
happens to them. So the punishment
must come later, after death. It
makes people feel good that Uncle
Fred will some day 'get what's coming
to him'. As I've said before, Christianity
is really a Parker Bros board game and
the instructions are under the lid. Pretty
funny.

Quote: AZDuffman

It surely beats the "predestined" thing some sects have. When I heard that for the first time I was amazed.

That isn't just some sect belief but the vast majority of Christians I've met believe that. There are plenty of bible verses they can use to substantiate it.

Quote: Matthew 24:13-14

Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are called, but few are chosen."