Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

The term "deserve" implies a judgment. The term "judgment" implies a consciousness capable of abstract thought and of adopting, or devising, and implementing a value system.

In other words, it's someone's judgment that we all deserve Hell. Whose?

God is the judge.

The relationship with the living Lord Jesus is in our minds, heart, and soul. You could ask countless people what good that has been for them and how their life has been changed for the better through this real loving relationship with the living Savior who has conquered sin and death.

Quote: FrGamble

I think God wants to save us from this old idea that there is something we have to earn or do to be loved by God. Throughout the history of religion and through the OT there are covenants and bargains made where God says I will do this for my part of the deal and you will do this as your part of the bargain. Over and over we showed that we could not live up to our end of the bargain or covenant.

You know it's bad form to make a bet when you're certain of the outcome. What, then, is making a contract you know the other side cannot keep?

We come to this again and again: Jehovah is a bully.

Quote:

I know that I am often accused of having a strange concept of love but in answer to Nareed wondering why we must have faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus I would say that these things are just the normal characteristics of having a healthy relationship with anyone.

I wouldn't call necrophilia a healthy relationship, even if there is no actual corpse involved.

If you want the scary word removed, then I don't think it's possible to have a relationship of any kind with someone who's dead. A relationship by definition requires action from both parts, not only from one. You may as well claim a relationship with, oh, George Washington, because you love him and write him letters and emails you never send.

Quote:

The other VERY important outgrowth of this salvation is we strive to imitate the love of Jesus Christ in our interactions with every other human person.

You'd think we'd see this more often. But, under the doublespeak idea of Christian Love, it can mean things like torture, or burning people at the stake to "save" their souls. Funny how that works, eh? The modern equivalent is to exclude certain people in order to "save" other people, perhaps. Torture, when used, is largely psychological and comes disguised as therapy.

Quote: pew

God is the judge.

Then "God" made people who all deserve to be in Hell, unless they submit to his protection racket so they may be "saved" from the Hell "God" set up in the first place.

"It's good to be the king."

Quote: FrGamble

In the person of Jesus Christ God's divine justice and love reach its climax. Jesus fulfills the covenant perfectly and also takes the burden or price of our failure to live up to the deal.

The only way this can possibly make logical sense, is rather if Jehovah admitted his failures and offered himself for atonement. Even then, it's not Jehovah who gets brutally murdered, but rather someone else.

Quote: Nareed

You know it's bad form to make a bet when you're certain of the outcome. What, then, is making a contract you know the other side cannot keep?

We are not talking about a bet. God is certain of the outcome and that outcome will be the recognition that all God desires is a loving relationship with a people whom He loves not because of what they do or don't, but because of who they are.

Quote:

If you want the scary word removed, then I don't think it's possible to have a relationship of any kind with someone who's dead. A relationship by definition requires action from both parts, not only from one.

It is surely possible though to have a relationship with someone who is alive and is loving and powerful enough to communicate with us in the most intimate ways through our conscience, thoughts, mind, imagination, feelings, intellect, soul, and will. This is a relationship that is actually more real than any you may ever have with another human being.

Quote:

You'd think we'd see this more often.

You would think and hope so wouldn't you? A lot of it is realizing where to look. It is often the hidden and humble Christians not making the news that are the ones truly living the faith and engaging in real loving relationships with their neighbors and anyone in need. They are the ones not judging or excluding people who show that God's love is there for them and all they need do is accept it and allow His Grace to change their lives for the better. People who walk with others as they struggle to let go of the lies and deceptions the secular world has told them will lead them to happiness. People who are patient and understanding when good people who are beginning that relationship of love with Jesus but still have a hard time striving to follow Him and love others.

Quote: Nareed

The only way this can possibly make logical sense, is rather if Jehovah admitted his failures and offered himself for atonement. Even then, it's not Jehovah who gets brutally murdered, but rather someone else.

What failures of YHWH? That those He created with the gift of free will would choose to enslave, kill, and hurt others? Is that His fault? Would you rather He create robots without free will and without the possibility to love? No, it is our failures for which God, incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ, truly dies. He fulfills divine justice in His life perfectly and at the same time frees us from the cost of our decisions not to be just, loving, and kind to others. If you think about it this is the only logically way both the requirements of justice can be met and the gift of merciful love can be given at the same time.

Quote: FrGamble

It is surely possible though to have a relationship with someone who is alive and is loving and powerful enough to communicate with us in the most intimate ways through our conscience, thoughts, mind, imagination, feelings, intellect, soul, and will. This is a relationship that is actually more real than any you may ever have with another human being.

And that is utter bullshite. What you do is
start looking for the communication, and
of course you find it. Everything that goes
right today, every thought you have that
steers you where you want to go, every
coincidental event, no matter how trivial,
gets attributed to this relationship with a
dead guy. Every time you fart downwind,
it's Jesus that guided you there.

I've watched my wife do this for decades.
Jesus is constantly talking to her, she thinks.
If she finds her lost keys, makes it to work
on time, gets a raise, finds a parking space
close to the door, she praises Jesus for
helping her.

Psychologists call this 'magical thinking' and
it's embarrassing to watch an otherwise
intelligent adult do it. She's knows better
than do it much around me because I'll
give her all the real reasons for what happened.

Quote: Evenbob

What you do is
start looking for the communication, and
of course you find it. Everything that goes
right today, every thought you have that
steers you where you want to go, every
coincidental event, no matter how trivial,
gets attributed to this relationship

Its sad you don't really realize how completely wrong you are. The truth is that often in prayer one is challenged, surprised, encouraged to go beyond your comfort zone, to think of new things or ideas that come from a source different than yourself. In a real relationship with Jesus you are comforted even when you don't feel you deserve it, you encounter thoughts and ideas that drive you to repentance or that cause you wonder. It is so obviously not yourself or some inner desires that you are tapping into that it is abundantly clear to me that you really don't know what you are talking about. I imagine if you really ask your wife, besides the trivial things you referenced, how her prayer relationship with Jesus has allowed her to love you more and gave her encouragement and strength she didn't know she had to get through difficult times, etc. - you would be impressed at the power and realness of prayer.

Quote: FrGamble

Its sad you don't really realize how completely wrong you are. .

What's really sad is your ego prevents
you admitting how right I am. I've
been watching this family of Jesus
freaks for decades, I see them in action
all the time. Every sunset was put there
just for them, every sale they stumble
on at the store, it was Jesus who guided
them there. Every red light they just
make it thru, every nice day they have
on vacation, whenever one of their
kids gets an A in school, they thank
Jesus for making it all happen. Hell,
if my wife is driving and a space opens
so she can pass somebody on the freeway,
she profusely thanks Jesus for opening
that space for her. It's maddening.

Don't you tell me I don't know what
I'm talking about.