Simple question?

Quote: pew

It does make sense to believers. It is impossible for those who don't. It surely is an enigma.

The bargain between god and human is an old idea, usually easy to understand.

Usually the human will promise the god a new temple, a big offering or something else in exchange for the god's favor. But sometime the god initiates the exchange:

An Egyptian noble once had a vision, in a dream, where the Sphinx of Giza, then covered in sand up to its neck, promised to make him king if he would remove the sand. He did, and later on became pharaoh (does this prove the Sphinx is the one true god? <w>). There's a stela at the base of the Sphinx attesting to this.

In Rome, Constantine, during his attempt to break up the Tetrarchy and usurp the throne for himself, had a vision of Jesus showing him the cross and telling him "With this sign you will conquer." Constantine went on to paint the cross and the Greek letters Chi and Ro (ie ChR, more or less) on his labarum and on the shields of his men. And went on to steal the position of sole emperor from his colleagues (I admit to some bias here).

This is all easily grasped. And also very much in character to the modus operandi of pagan deities since the dawn of history (and probably even before then). Jehovah also made a bargain of sorts with Abraham.

I don't understand the bargain Jehovah/Jesus propose in "salvation."

Quote: Nareed

The bargain between god and human is an old idea, usually easy to understand.

Usually the human will promise the god a new temple, a big offering or something else in exchange for the god's favor. But sometime the god initiates the exchange:

An Egyptian noble once had a vision, in a dream, where the Sphinx of Giza, then covered in sand up to its neck, promised to make him king if he would remove the sand. He did, and later on became pharaoh (does this prove the Sphinx is the one true god? <w>). There's a stela at the base of the Sphinx attesting to this.

In Rome, Constantine, during his attempt to break up the Tetrarchy and usurp the throne for himself, had a vision of Jesus showing him the cross and telling him "With this sign you will conquer." Constantine went on to paint the cross and the Greek letters Chi and Ro (ie ChR, more or less) on his labarum and on the shields of his men. And went on to steal the position of sole emperor from his colleagues (I admit to some bias here).

This is all easily grasped. And also very much in character to the modus operandi of pagan deities since the dawn of history (and probably even before then). Jehovah also made a bargain of sorts with Abraham.

I don't understand the bargain Jehovah/Jesus propose in "salvation."

If you are convinced there's no God why do you care? Eat drink and be merry! Keep life simple and enjoyable.

Quote: pew

If you are convinced there's no God why do you care?

Because my rights have been restricted by people who believe in a god.

Quote:

Eat drink and be merry! Keep life simple and enjoyable.

Cook, read, write, achieve and learn.

I like my version better :)

Quote: Nareed

Because my rights have been restricted by people who believe in a god.]



Cook, read, write, achieve and learn.


I like my version better :)

Do you mean laws enacted by government on some religious basis? And you're wanting to understand their rationale?
All that stuff. And vacations too.

Quote: pew

Do you mean laws enacted by government on some religious basis? And you're wanting to understand their rationale?

I know their rationale. But law, culture, politics and mores are not made solely by legislators or political parties. Culture and mores in particular are shaped by the preponderant beliefs, preferences, prejudices, etc. of a population, however it is defined.

Given that Christianity is a big part of this, and that "salvation" apparently plays a large role within it, I figure I could try to understand it.

Quote: Nareed

I know their rationale. But law, culture, politics and mores are not made solely by legislators or political parties. Culture and mores in particular are shaped by the preponderant beliefs, preferences, prejudices, etc. of a population, however it is defined.

Given that Christianity is a big part of this, and that "salvation" apparently plays a large role within it, I figure I could try to understand it.

What rights are you talking about? And who is restricting them if not government? I don't understand that.

Quote: pew

What rights are you talking about?

Too many to list them all.

Quote:

And who is restricting them if not government? I don't understand that.

Elected officials care about one thing: staying in office. To do this they pander to those who elect them. 90% or more of all laws passed are meant to please their voters so they'll reelect the officials, or to please donors so they'll keep giving them money so they can run campaigns to be reelected.

So their motivations aren't important. The motivations of the electorate are.

Quote: pew

If you are convinced there's no God why do you care? .

WHY? Are you joking? Because in this country
we're surrounded by these magical thinking
throwbacks to the past, that's why. They have
their fingers in everything and are constantly
trying to make us do their bidding.

We no longer live in a world where superstition
and magical thinking and witches and devils
rule our lives. We now live in the world of reason
and science, or at least are trying to get there.
In the magical thinking period that lasted thousands
of years, the Jesus myth made perfect sense, it
fit right in. Now it's not even explainable or
understandable. Somebody who says they do
understand it is either confused, in denial, or
pretending. There is no way a man being
executed 2000 years ago had any bearing on
the real physical world, unless you're kidding
yourself.

Quote: Nareed

Too many to list them all.



Elected officials care about one thing: staying in office. To do this they pander to those who elect them. 90% or more of all laws passed are meant to please their voters so they'll reelect the officials, or to please donors so they'll keep giving them money so they can run campaigns to be reelected.

So their motivations aren't important. The motivations of the electorate are.

So it is laws you're talking about. Can you give me one or two laws that restrict your rights. You don't need to list them all, but it would be helpful to get the gist of it. I guess drug laws restrict a persons right to get high (persuit of happiness) or filling out a form when withdrawing certain amounts of money from the bank (liberty) or killing American citizens with drone strikes without due process (life). I don't get the connection with salvation but is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

Quote: Evenbob

There is no god,
therefore there can be no sin.

You keep stating this, though all evidence is against you. First, if you want to make an argument that there is no God you have to make the case for how life started from no life by random. Second, you need to explain why anthropologically pretty much every society is against your POV.

Many people like to state that there is no God or sin because sin puts constraints on their personal behavior.