Simple question?

Oh I forgot another front upon which we were fighting. There was a brief dust-up with Bob concerning moral relativism and how it is maybe the worst idea since atheism. Any further questions or clarifications needed there?

Quote: Dalex64

While we are posting things we don't get,

If god gave us free will,
and knows every decision we will ever make,
why did he put the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden?

Are you basically asking why God didn't gave us free will, but take away all the possible opportunities to exercise it?

Quote: FrGamble

Secondly, about miracles I would suggest you look into the causes of saints.
The amount of detail and investigation put into these claims is quite
extraordinary. They need all types of testimony from doctors and the like. You
could also take a visit to the St. Joseph's Shrine in Montreal or the St. Anne
Shrine in Quebec and see the thousands of crutches, canes, and mementos
left behind in thanksgiving for a miracle. These might not all have doctor's testimonies behind them but they are very and undeniably real to many folks.

Does anyone at all outside of the catholic institution corroborate the miracles and their attribution? That is what I am asking.

Quote: FrGamble

Are you basically asking why God didn't gave us free will, but take away all the possible opportunities to exercise it?

No, that is not what I am basically asking.

I will elaborate.
Before he made the universe, God knew we would betray him, that he would punish us, and that everyone who ever lived and everyone who will ever live except for Jesus and his mother Mary would have to atone for it.
What kind of a plan is that?

Quote: Dalex64

No, that is not what I am basically asking.

I will elaborate.
Before he made the universe, God knew we would betray him, that he would punish us, and that everyone who ever lived and everyone who will ever live except for Jesus and his mother Mary would have to atone for it.
What kind of a plan is that?

That is a super good way of looking at it. What
kind of plan indeed. A really messed up plan,
a plan invented by men who really didn't give
it a lot of thought. I admire the way you and
Nareed think. I kinda of plod along in a straight
line, you guys look at things from different angles.

Quote: Dalex64

No, that is not what I am basically asking.

I will elaborate.
Before he made the universe, God knew we would betray him, that he would punish us, and that everyone who ever lived and everyone who will ever live except for Jesus and his mother Mary would have to atone for it.
What kind of a plan is that?

I'm not sure. I guess God's plan could not have been to create us at all or as we've talked about and rejected He could have made human-like robots without free will. He could have as you seemed to allude to earlier created us with free will but not given us any real choices to exercise it.

However, He chose to make us knowing that we would betray Him and yet love us anyway, He chose to forgive us over and over again never giving up on us, He chose to show us that He would always be there for us and love us no matter what. Maybe that is why traditionally we call Him our Heavenly Father. If you are father or if you asked your own father who no doubt knew there would be times that you would disappoint him or betray him do you think he would still choose to have you as a son. I'm guessing and hoping the answer would be yes.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not sure.

You're not sure because the way Dalex presented it,
the 'plan' is patently ridiculous. When you look at it
as a whole, instead of all the parts separately, the
'plan' is nuttier than a fruitcake. There is no way
to defend such a plan, only run from those those
that embrace it.

Quote: FrGamble

He chose to forgive us over and over again never giving up on us,

Which is contrary to the lesson of god drowning the Earth in the story of Noah.

Looks pretty much to me, the idea there was he did not forgive over and over again as you said in the same post.

Even if the story is an illustration and not literal, the lesson is god gave up and drowned them.

Quote: FrGamble

Trying to compare this to human love, even the greatest human and healthy love we can imagine, is not even possible.

It's never possible to compare real, actual things to stuff that only exists in fantasy. You also cannot compare the finest dishes made by the greatest chefs with Ambrosia.

Quote:

A stalker?

Knows everything about you, watches everything you do, is with you even when you want him elsewhere, and he'll never go away. 100% certified stalker.

Things like this make me particularly grateful he's not real.

Quote:

We are talking about the love of God who has loved you into being, constantly sees your goodness, joyfully forgives you, is understanding and compassionate in your struggles, and desires to give you the gift of life eternal in the perfectly happy and just world we dream about.

Who requires complete and total submission and obedience. He also dishes out severe punishment for transgressions.

Do we need to list how this compares to an abusive spouse or parent?

Quote:

These might not all have doctor's testimonies behind them but they are very and undeniably real to many folks.

So are things like astrology, psychic readings, dianetics and a whole bunch of other things people swear by. Yours is one among many.

Quote: rxwine

Which is contrary to the lesson of god drowning the Earth in the story of Noah.

Looks pretty much to me, the idea there was he did not forgive over and over again as you said in the same post.

Even if the story is an illustration and not literal, the lesson is god gave up and drowned them.

If you want to understand the Bible, you need to set it in its proper context. As the inerrant word of "God," it simply doesn't work. There is no "God." As a book of the collected myths of an early bronze age desert nation, including oral stories passed on from even earlier and possibly nomadic times, it begins to make sense.

For example, many of the civilization which arose in the Middle East have a flood story, some have several. Some of these involve deities, some don't. Seeing all of these civilizations settled first by the side of rivers, a catastrophic flood that destroys entire cities (of the time), is not only possible but a near certainty. This is not to say there was one particular flood which affected many civilizations at the same time, but most likely several different bad floods over a span of time.

Many civilizations also have a tale of a god or a group of gods trying to destroy humanity. Egypt has one where two gods disagree about it, sort of. First Ra orders Hathor to destroy humanity, but then he relents. Hathor, however, wants to keep going, and in her blood lust transforms to the lion goddess Sechmed. Ra then dyes large amounts of beer red with ochre, which Hathor/Sechmed takes for human blood and drinks it all. In her drunken state, her passions cool off and humanity lives to see another day.

There is some anthropological evidence to suggest at one time the human population of Earth came perilously close to an unsustainably low level. In fact, humans do show less genetic variation than most other species, indicating perhaps a small number of common ancestors.