Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

I've often been tempted to bring in some support to help me and have often prayed this would happen organically.

If I wanted to see someone backup your side, I'd urge you in the strongest possible terms to stop praying for it.

Let's consider a hypothetical:

Suppose a Christian begins to question their faith because they have doubts about it. Through several steps, they reach the conclusion many of the fundamental principles of Christianity are wrong.

What then?



IMO, the notion that questions are okay come from the belief that the answers are in the back of the book, and that any inquiry will lead to them and no others. If this were so, we'd see a unified Christian faith with little variation or deviation at all, rather like we see in the hard sciences. Variation and deviation would be restricted to the most arcane and obscure areas.

Quote: Evenbob

Truth is relative, live with it or
be a narcissist, your choice..

Oh maybe you don't get it? I thought you were making fun of yourself. You know your faulty logic and circular reasoning on this issue is not the worst part of relativism, not by a long shot. It is the disgusting admission you have to make to those who abuse children or are racist or hurt puppies that their truth is just as valid for them as my truth that what they are doing is wrong. After all truth is relative and only an opinion, right? Get out of here with that garbage!

Also at the heart of relativism is narcissism. You're basically saying that I can determine truth for myself based upon my own opinions and ideas and you can say nothing about it. You are basically saying we should all invent our own little worlds and rule over them, become gods to the world of Evenbob. Crazy talk.

Quote: FrGamble

You're basically saying that I can determine truth for myself based upon my own opinions and ideas

No, I'm saying truth IS nothing more than your
opinions and ideas. You think because you can
get others to agree with you, or you agree with
others, that makes your truth more true.

And in case you haven't noticed, we've made
laws to deal with people like child molesters
whose personal truths are detrimental to the
community. We separate them from others and
lock them away. Some societies would kill them
almost immediately.

The frightening thing about the Church is, they
think their truths should be everybody's truths,
and not so long ago they would force them on
you if you didn't agree. Although they aren't
allowed to do that anymore, that attitude still
exists. They're right and everybody else is wrong.

Quote: Nareed

Let's consider a hypothetical:

Suppose a Christian begins to question their faith because they have doubts about it. Through several steps, they reach the conclusion many of the fundamental principles of Christianity are wrong.

What then?

I think if you arrived at such conclusions you would no longer believe in Christianity. I'll leave aside that the fundamental principles of Christianity are the fundamental principles of morality as we know it.

Quote:

IMO, the notion that questions are okay come from the belief that the answers are in the back of the book, and that any inquiry will lead to them and no others. If this were so, we'd see a unified Christian faith with little variation or deviation at all, rather like we see in the hard sciences. Variation and deviation would be restricted to the most arcane and obscure areas.

I think this is exactly what we do see in the Christian faith. I agree with over 90%, maybe 100%, with everything the Baptist minister down the road preaches every Sunday. We have liturgical differences or variations but the fundamental principles you mentioned earlier are all the same.

Quote: Evenbob

No, I'm saying truth IS nothing more than your
opinions and ideas.

Be careful that sounds an awful like an absolute statement of truth.

Quote:

And in case you haven't noticed, we've made
laws to deal with people like child molesters
whose personal truths are detrimental to the
community. We separate them from others and
lock them away. Some societies would kill them
almost immediately.

And why do we do this? It is because we know the truth that what they are doing is universally and objectively wrong/evil/bad. By continuing to hold the idea that truth is relative is to say that in their own minds or opinions these child molesters were following truth and they are no more wrong or right than I am to hold the opposite view. This is where I start to get mad every time you bring this ludicrous philosophy up. Can you imagine a time, place, or universe where abusing little children is a good thing? Of course not, because it is an absolute truth. I swear moral relativists are really who are detrimental to the community and they should also be locked up. How can you seriously hold these illogical and strange positions?!?

Quote:

The frightening thing about the Church is, they
think their truths should be everybody's truths,

The frightening thing about truth is that it is everybody's truth. Two plus two equals four for everyone whether you like it or not. You seem to believe that truth is relative and you think that should be everybody's truth and that is damn frightening to me.

Quote: FrGamble

I think if you arrived at such conclusions you would no longer believe in Christianity.

Bravo!

Quote:

I'll leave aside that the fundamental principles of Christianity are the fundamental principles of morality as we know it.

They are not.

Morality, or rather a moral code, is a guide on how to live, here on this world, and how to get along with others. Everything regarding a mythical, made-up, other world, next world, after-life, etc., as interesting intellectually a game as it may be to me, is irrelevant. The core principle of "loving" Jehovah/Jesus is completely misguided, a moral obstacle if you will.

Quote:

I think this is exactly what we do see in the Christian faith.

Granted it's been a while since one branch of Christians went to war with another branch to wipe them all out or convert them to the one true faith, but there is still much tension and bigotry on all sides.

This is not exclusive to Christianity. You should hear what some Orthodox Jews say about Conservative Jews, and what both think of Reform Jews. And Muslims still do kill each other over matters of faith.

Quote: FrGamble

I think if you arrived at such conclusions you would no longer believe in Christianity. I'll leave aside that the fundamental principles of Christianity are the fundamental principles of morality as we know it.

The fundamental principles of Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and many others are also the fundamental principles of morality.

Christianity is not and was not the only source of the fundamental principles of morality.

Quote: Dalex64

The fundamental principles of Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and many others are also the fundamental principles of morality.

Christianity is not and was not the only source of the fundamental principles of morality.

I agree, God is.

Humans seem to have always had the capability to believe in many imaginary things than just a god.

That right there should make you suspicious. Or at the very least, you should assign a very low priority to such ideas rather than making them central to your life.

But let's suppose there is an intelligent creator. And suppose he rewards those who stick to investigating the "real and testable" properties of the Universe. In fact the very REASON you can learn things, and test things is because HE wanted to see if you could pass THAT test. The TEST of discovering the real Universe and not fall for the ideas of bunk, wishful thinking and charlatans.

Maybe that's the wager you should have made Pascal, you pea brained idiot. lol (if I don't say so myself with simulated hubris).

Anyway, that's just another proposition, one can entertain.