Simple question?

Quote: pew

See kids. Stand up to a bully and they run away every time.

Is that what you think that means? I think it means he thinks you have nothing worth reading.

Quote: Dalex64

Vast distances and the speed of light are very isolating. Of course, that does not fit with your belief that the entire universe was made just for us.

A Christians view of the universe is that
of an egocentric child. And it hasn't
gotten better with advancing science,
either. Go to any sermon in any of the
Christian sects, and it's all about me me me.
Just like a child, they are the center of
their religions universe. That's how the
Church hangs on to them, by constantly
playing to their ego's.

Quote: Dalex64

Is that what you think that means? I think it means he thinks you have nothing worth reading.

yes. And with their tails between their legs. Truth?... You can't handle the truth. If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. Don't send a boy to do a mans job. When the going gets tough I win the argument......

Quote: FrGamble

Well since it did not create itself that means it is either eternal or created.

Show your evidence that energy did not create itself.

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If it was eternal then it would have an eternity ago fallen victim to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

What is it with creationists and the Second Law? Even Homer Simpson has a better grasp of it ("And this perpetual motion machine she made today is a joke. It just keeps going faster and faster. -Lisa, get in here! In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!")

1) The Second law concerns the flow of heat and the increase of entropy, not the existence or non-existence of energy. If the universe reaches a state of heat death, the energy content of it will be the same one as it is today.

2) If energy existed all concentrated in a pinpoint, as it did at the time of the Big Bang, there would be no energy flow because there would be no space for any energy to flow. It's all concentrated literally in the same space.

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If it is not eternal then it was created at some time in the past before the event we know of as the Big Bang.

Show your evidence that energy is not eternal.

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The mystery of life and consciousness is something not explained just by the natural sciences.

the mystery of lightning is not something explained by natural science. Until the XVIII Century, no one even knew what it was made of. I suppose until then it was generated by Zeus.

Ignorance is a poor crutch on which to support an argument. When we solve the riddle of consciousness, will your god cease to exist? Also, it's not like we know nothing about consciousness, much as it will pain you to learn.

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We all have souls that are spiritual creations constantly held into existence with the rest of material creation by the constant care of the creator.

I'd love to see your evidence for that!

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They like the universe are not necessary and do not have to exist. Therefore they were created.

Do I need to say it again?

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To believe that all that we do ultimately is destined to mean nothing and in the grand scheme of things be worthless, which is the unavoidable consequence of atheism (that even atheists try to deny or run away from),

This is a good time to dredge up an old quotation from the old BBS days: Some people's mind are like concrete: hard and permanently set.

There's no reasoning with you. If I tell you how and why my life has very significant meaning, or how I connect with the past and the future, you'll dismiss it as me being in denial and pining for some deity to worship.

Quote: Nareed

If I tell you how and why my life has very significant meaning, or how I connect with the past and the future, you'll dismiss it as me being in denial and pining for some deity to worship.

It's like priests and ministers are computer
programs. They're job seems to be to never
look at anything objectively, but to instead
find a way to make it compatible with their
religious view of everything. To do that they
often have to sound ridiculous beyond belief.

Science got to where it is by being non objective.
Religion just tries to hold everything in place,
progress is anathema to religion.

Quote: Dalex64

Is that what you think that means? I think it means he thinks you have nothing worth reading.

No, we've seem him do this many times. Sometimes he abruptly leaves threads other times he blocks people just because he doesn't feel like dealing with them. It is a shame, but like pew said it usually means a victory and he doesn't want to admit it.

Quote: Nareed

Show your evidence that energy did not create itself.

Come on do you have evidence that energy did create itself? Why don't we go with what observation and common sense lead us to believe. We do not have any experience of material things creating themselves so there is evidence that points to energy not being an exception as a material thing itself.

Why we are on this line of questioning can you kindly show your evidence that God did not create the universe?

Quote:

1) The Second law concerns the flow of heat and the increase of entropy, not the existence or non-existence of energy. If the universe reaches a state of heat death, the energy content of it will be the same one as it is today.

2) If energy existed all concentrated in a pinpoint, as it did at the time of the Big Bang, there would be no energy flow because there would be no space for any energy to flow. It's all concentrated literally in the same space.

The point is that if all energy was not created and is eternal then why an expanding universe at all? Why is there a law of entropy leading to a state of heat death. If energy was truly eternal than we would already be at this state of heat death since we would have had an eternity of time to reach such a state of death.

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Show your evidence that energy is not eternal.

See above. If the universe is expanding and has not reached the complete state of entropy then it is not eternal but had a beginning at some point.

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Ignorance is a poor crutch on which to support an argument. When we solve the riddle of consciousness, will your god cease to exist? Also, it's not like we know nothing about consciousness, much as it will pain you to learn.

So your argument is that because we don't know the answer to why we are conscious we need just to wait to figure it out before we can make any claims on the existence of God or not? That seems like an agnostic argument based on ignorance. I am not saying we should believe in God because we don't understand how or why we are alive and have consciousness. I am saying that God is the ultimate source of life and consciousness and that whatever science discovers it cannot rule on if there is a God or not. Why do you continue to think that science will ever prove or disprove the existence of God? Belief on God does not rely on ignorance. It is the disbelief in God that seems to depend on ignorance and the ignorant hope that one day we will prove God doesn't exist based on observational science. As you said above, Ignorance is a poor crutch on which to support an argument.

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There's no reasoning with you. If I tell you how and why my life has very significant meaning, or how I connect with the past and the future, you'll dismiss it as me being in denial and pining for some deity to worship.

I would love to hear how and why you life has very significant meaning. As an intelligent and interesting person I would hope and suspect you do have such an answer to the why of the purpose and meaning in your life that connects to the past and future. I promise I won't dismiss it. I also promise you it will have nothing to do with the logical conclusions your atheism would lead you to.

Quote: Dalex64

I did not say that the universe did not make sense, I said it does not make sense that the universe was designed around life on earth.

I hear what you are saying, but you have lost the right to make any judgments on what makes sense or not in regard to the universe by saying it is just random chance. What if by random chance it turns out that the universe gives the impression that it was designed around life on earth? I agree that there is a better chance of throwing the parts of the space shuttle in a tornado and having a working space shuttle emerge, but hey I guess it is possible? You would be better off admitting that while the universe gives every indication of being designed but it is an illusion caused by staggering and unbelievable luck of chance.

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The laws of the universe are not fine tuned to support life. Life is tuned to fit the laws of the universe.

How can you be so sure that the laws of the universe are not set to create the life we see in the universe?

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If a different universe had different laws, that still allowed matter to form but perhaps interact differently, the the life that evolved to fit in that universe would undoubtably be different than life as we know it.

Allowing a universe to exist where matter can not form does not eliminate the possibility that there could be a universe where matter formed differently. There is no reason to believe that our universe and our laws is the one and only one that can support matter and life.

I think these comments border on being non-sequitur. Science is pretty clear that if the laws are changed, even minutely, we can't really imagine matter or life forming. That is not to say that a different type of matter or life might exist I guess. However, it is not something we can test or even coherently discuss. It has no bearing on the fact that the universe we know and exist in has the laws it does that precisely allows the type of life we enjoy.

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There is no reason to think that there isn't life out there somewhere, possibly intelligent life, and no reason to think that intelligent life couldn't form later. Perhaps we are the first. Perhaps we are not. Vast distances and the speed of light are very isolating. Of course, that does not fit with your belief that the entire universe was made just for us.

I guess there is no reason to think that and there is no reason that demands we think that either. There has been some interesting theological discussions about finding intelligent life on other planets. It doesn't necessarily not fit with my understanding of God and the universe.

Quote: FrGamble

but like pew said it usually means a victory

It's a victory for me because I no longer
have to deal with his inanity. Most of
his conversation involves snarky half
thoughts and I'm tired of it. Add something
or quit talking. If my blocking pew is
a victory for him, he should revel in it,
I'm sure it's a new experience.

Quote: Evenbob

It's a victory for me because I no longer
have to deal with his inanity. Most of
his conversation involves snarky half
thoughts and I'm tired of it. Add something
or quit talking. If my blocking P-U is
a victory for him, he should revel in it,
I'm sure it's a new experience.

Are we sure you are not Donald Trump?