Neo-monophysitism

Quote: FrGamble

The question is why should I carry on or why should I create a positive reality if there is no meaning outside the one we make up?

You're making up the one you're living NOW, you
just refuse to accept it. How do all the atheists live
without the help from some deity. They seem to be
doing just fine. You've locked yourself in a prison
of your own making, just like a mentally disturbed
person would do, or a drug addict.

Quit doing that.

Quote: Nareed

So in this case, what is Jehovah's motivation for telling Satan to go ahead and make Job suffer?

To test Job and his faithfulness and through this test teach all of us an important lesson about how to handle the suffering we all go through. It also shows the inadequacies of the theories about why we suffer that were prevalent at the time and that you surprisingly seem to want to revive.

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That would depend on the specific causes, situations and what is within one's control to do about it.

What about the suffering that Job is undergoing that is not in one's control?

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But my top advice would be NOT to turn to Jehovah, Jesus, Spiderman, Obi-wan Kenobi, Amun, Hercules, or other fictional characters for help.

I think we have already covered that Jesus is not a fictional character, but is very real. What your top advice seems to be is rather to turn to nothingness for help because that is what you seem to believe in. It is fiction to think there is nothing and it is even stranger why anyone would think that it is helpful to believe that, but I guess you do like fiction and seem to abhor reality.

Quote: FrGamble

To test Job and his faithfulness and through this test teach all of us an important lesson about how to handle the suffering we all go through.

So he is a sadist and a bully. We're agreed. And you'd better love him or else!

Did it occur to you for a second that if Job had been a terrible person, Jehovah would have left him alone? The reward for virtue is suffering.

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What about the suffering that Job is undergoing that is not in one's control?

I'd tell him the same thing I'd advice Ben Grimm: find a nicer author!

If you care to cite a real-life case, 'm willing to give a serious answer.

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I think we have already covered that Jesus is not a fictional character, but is very real.

In the myth.

Quote: Nareed

In the myth.

Exactly. In the Jesus Seminar they concluded
about 80% of what Jesus said in the NT
was added later, he never really said it.
That's how a myth comes to be, it's
added to and added to. Even the Church
admits they've added lots of things to
the religion that aren't in the NT, just
because they 'must' be true. Most of the
things about worshiping Mary are nowhere
in the NT, for example.

Quote: Nareed

So he is a sadist and a bully. We're agreed. And you'd better love him or else!

Or else what? He blesses you with more than you could ever imagine and the gift of eternal life? Also do you see testing as bullying or sadistic. Now remember before you bring up all that Satan did to Job you can't treat everything as literal in this part of your post and then in a few lines say the whole this is hypothetical.

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Did it occur to you for a second that if Job had been a terrible person, Jehovah would have left him alone? The reward for virtue is suffering.

Did it occur to you for a second that if Job had been a terrible person, YHWH would never have given him a test He knew that he would fail? The reward for virtue is strength to overcome difficulties.

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If you care to cite a real-life case, 'm willing to give a serious answer.

What about a family who is about to deliver a baby that the doctors all believe will only be alive a very short time and then will pass away. I'm also at the same time trying to help another family deal with the news that their newborn has serious heart issues and is going to need surgery very soon.

Quote: FrGamble

and the gift of eternal life?.

It's not a gift, it's a natural part of
existence. Just not in heaven or
hell, that's the Parker Bros game
version of life. The Church is in
the center of the board selling
indulgences.

Quote: FrGamble

Or else what? He blesses you with more than you could ever imagine and the gift of eternal life?

That impresses me as much as if you told me the Justice League protects the world form alien invaders.

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Did it occur to you for a second that if Job had been a terrible person, YHWH would never have given him a test He knew that he would fail? The reward for virtue is strength to overcome difficulties.

If you think one should be grateful to Jehovah for giving Job the strength to endure the torture Jehovah gave him, you're the kind of person I want nothing to do with.

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What about a family who is about to deliver a baby that the doctors all believe will only be alive a very short time and then will pass away.

Offer whatever comfort and support you can, and advise them to see a professional who can help them afterwards. I'm not a psychologist, psychiatrist or other type of mental health professional. I wouldn't undertake to counsel them through their trouble, any more than I would undertake to perform surgery should one of them need it.

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I'm also at the same time trying to help another family deal with the news that their newborn has serious heart issues and is going to need surgery very soon.

Will you advise them to do nothing but pray and trust that Jehovah, Jesus or the other deity will solve the problem for them? Will you dare to tell them they're lucky Jehovah is testing them?

Quote: Nareed

If you think one should be grateful to Jehovah for giving Job the strength to endure the torture Jehovah gave him, you're the kind of person I want nothing to do with.

It is not the torture God gives us, it is the suffering and hardships of life and yes, I am grateful to God that He has given me the strength to endure them and to help others as well.

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Offer whatever comfort and support you can, and advise them to see a professional who can help them afterwards. I'm not a psychologist, psychiatrist or other type of mental health professional. I wouldn't undertake to counsel them through their trouble, any more than I would undertake to perform surgery should one of them need it.

Good advice. What if they ask if their child has value even though it may only live a few moments? What if they ask why this is happening? Why is life so unfair and unjust that this kind of thing should happen? Is there any hope for their small child who will only live a few moments?

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Will you advise them to do nothing but pray and trust that Jehovah, Jesus or the other deity will solve the problem for them? Will you dare to tell them they're lucky Jehovah is testing them?

Again both of your questions are good ones and the answer is a definitive No to both. I believe God would want them to do all that they can to help solve the problem and to also pray for the doctors and nurses and themselves and their little child. I think we both agree that saying God is testing them is the worst thing one could do. As the Book of Job shows us, God permits evil but does not cause it. However, the resulting situation does indeed test our faith, which is the only thing that gives them hope for the future and eternal life of their child.

Quote: FrGamble

It is not the torture God gives us,

Yes, it is.

If I believed in Jehovah, I'd forever wonder what would set him off. Lots of your fellow Christians seem convinced he's that kind of deity.

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What if they ask if their child has value even though it may only live a few moments?

A human life is intrinsically valuable and unique regardless of duration.

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As the Book of Job shows us, God permits evil but does not cause it.

Th book of Job shows he does cause it.

Either way, it's not the kind of thing a "loving" deity would be expected to do. What would you think of a parent who did nothing if their children were beaten up or otherwise mistreated.

Quote: Nareed

If I believed in Jehovah, I'd forever wonder what would set him off. Lots of your fellow Christians seem convinced he's that kind of deity.

I don't believe anything sets Him off. But I do believe there are rules and laws, written in Scripture and reflected in nature that need to be followed or there are consequences. Consequences He does everything He can to warn us about and guide us away from in infinite patience. Even when we break those laws He is still merciful and has ultimately paid the consequence of our failures with His own life so that we may life forever in peace and joy.

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A human life is intrinsically valuable and unique regardless of duration.

Beautifully said.

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Either way, it's not the kind of thing a "loving" deity would be expected to do. What would you think of a parent who did nothing if their children were beaten up or otherwise mistreated.

I would expect a loving parent to do something about it. Maybe a parent would go and talk to the other parents and warn them, maybe if the loving parent was extra merciful He would warn them like 10 times that they should let His child be free of the mistreatment or else there would be serious consequences.