Neo-monophysitism

Quote: FrGamble

You are correct it has crossed my mind many times that I might be wrong,

You not wrong, your Church's brainwashing
of you is wrong. They have faulty and silly
ideas and try to pass them off as reality.
Thankfully fewer and fewer people are
buying into it. We have to become more
secular if we're ever going to have a future.
Yahweh's insane followers, especially Islam,
must be dealt with. Christians are mostly
harmless, it's followers, even Catholics,
mostly ignore the Church and are Catholics
in name only. It's a dead sect, it just doesn't
know it yet.

Quote: Evenbob

We have to become more
secular if we're ever going to have a future.

I hate to repeat it, but you could not possibly be more wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

It is you who are blackballing God in this story.

"He didn't need my help."

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Anyway, YWHW did not send anything to Job but trusted that Job, a righteous man, would not turn his back on God when things got bad. God knew that good Job did not just honor God because things were going well in his life, but rather he had a true love for God that did not depend on good fortune.

So Satan tells Jehovah, "your boy Job loves you only because he has wealth and a family. If something happened to them, I'd bet he'd turn his back on you."

"Ha!" replies Jehovah. "Go do your worst, just don't kill him. Then we'll see."

No. God didn't send anyone to do anything to Job. Also water is not wet and the Sun isn't bright.

Are we speaking the same language?

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This fictional story is not about losing things and loved ones and then getting them back, it is about how we handle the difficult situations of life. Do we curse God and reject him leaving us no hope?

If he sends his goon to torture you, you damn well should.

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Like Job we continue to trust that the love of God is still with us even though we don't understand it.

But we know what Job doesn't know. He'd have done well to take on of those other gods before this bastard. The Greek gods didn't claim to love humanity, and they warned us they are capricious to the point they make a spoiled brat seem like the voice of Reason. But at least you know what you're getting.

And your god doesn't even show any common decency in telling Job what happened. Why?

Did you read 1984? I can imagine few things worse than the evil, complete dictatorship portrayed there, or how it deals with dissent. But O'Brien at least is kind enough to explain things to Winston (because it will do him no good at all). Both when he gives him "Goldstein's" book, and in person when he tortures him. He spells out what the Party wants, too: "A boot on mankind's face. Forever." In other words: complete obedience, complete submission, no questions asked, and all power to the Party.

How is that different from what Jehovah wants? When he scolds Job, who, you may want to remember, has lost his family, his wealth, his friends, his health, his peace of mind, and for some reason not his mind, he basically says "You know nothing, you are nothing compared to me." after that, are we not to turn our backs on God because, man, imagine the consequences if we really piss him off! Obey. Submit. Don't question your betters.

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You couldn't be more wrong.

Of course I could be. I could convert to Christianity.

Quote: FrGamble

I hate to repeat it, but you could not possibly be more wrong.

What? The icebox salesman is against refridgerators?
Shocking.

Quote: Nareed

If he sends his goon to torture you, you damn well should.

So you are giving the same faulty advice of Job's friends. When bad things happen curse God and die. Surely this message of despair is rightly condemned in this story. Like Job at the end of the book when he prays that God would have mercy on his friends who gave such bad advice I will do the same for you. Do you really think this is the message that would best help the grieving father who has lost so much, "Obviously God has it out for you, give up on Him and just die already your life is meaningless without the people and things you once had." That is so wrong.

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And your god doesn't even show any common decency in telling Job what happened. Why?

Please keep in mind the point of this story; what do we do in the midst of suffering? There is no explanation that can be given. You can say God did this or that is just the way life is or you can point out the details of what you think led to this tragedy - none of it offers a adequate solution to the person who is suffering. Sometimes the best thing we can do is remain silent and be present, offer a hug and a shoulder to cry on. In the hospital room or the funeral home this is always the most comforting no matter how eloquent I try to be in my preaching. The beginning part of the Book of Job is meant to be foreign to our understanding and confusing. How can this happen? Those five or so verses lead into 40 chapters of discussion about suffering. You would do much better to skip the beginning and end and read the true message of the story that you are so obviously skipping over.

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How is that different from what Jehovah wants? When he scolds Job, who, you may want to remember, has lost his family, his wealth, his friends, his health, his peace of mind, and for some reason not his mind, he basically says "You know nothing, you are nothing compared to me." after that, are we not to turn our backs on God because, man, imagine the consequences if we really piss him off! Obey. Submit. Don't question your betters.

Again you are reading your own issues into this story. It is not about obeying or submitting it is about how do we remain faithful and good in the midst of the troubles of life. God doesn't answer Job, you, or me and offer explanations. He only asks us to trust that He is with us and will always be there for us in the midst of our sufferings. This takes faith and a recognition that suffering does not have to be the end of our faith or our lives. Converting to Christianity would I think help you to see these truths and help you better understand Job and life.

Quote: FrGamble

When bad things happen curse God and die.

When bad things happen, turning to a fictional character for help isn't going to improve the situation.

Say I'm experiencing financial difficulties and then get sick. What you think I should do is cry out "Help me, Obi-wan Kenobi! You're my only hope." Or pray to your god? It's basically the same thing. How about sacrificing a goat to Athena? Or changing my name to Ankhasunamun, since surely the almighty Amun, god of something or other, won't abandon his loyal follower?

Perhaps I should try something really crazy, like taking out a loan on my credit card, or asking friends for help, or looking up whether my insurance will cover my condition.

Nah. That won't ever work.

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Please keep in mind the point of this story; what do we do in the midst of suffering?

Not turn to Jehovah, you know why, and perhaps not waste time arguing with friends over why Obi-wan seems mad at you? perhaps you shouldn't have bought the Darth Vader toaster?

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The beginning part of the Book of Job is meant to be foreign to our understanding and confusing. How can this happen?

Easy: Jehovah is a cruel, sadistic bastard. He boasts about Job to Satan, then suggests the latter torture the former to settle a bet.

Suppose I were to tell you "Hey, this guy Joe you like so much, I bet he'd lose his faith if I kidnapped his family, torched his place, stole his identity, and injected him with HIV."

Would you:

A) Tell me not to do any of that
B) Call the cops and warn them what I proposed to do
C) Say "Sure, go right ahead. Joe's faith is unshakable."

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Converting to Christianity would I think help you to see these truths and help you better understand Job and life.

Convert to a religion which makes no sense to me, demands much and offers nothing I can even comprehend. Sure. Why not? Obey, conform, submit, and ask no questions. I can totally see the appeal.

Quote: Nareed

Convert to a religion which makes no sense to me, demands much and offers nothing I can even comprehend. Sure. Why not? Obey, conform, submit, and ask no questions. I can totally see the appeal.

I seems like a trap to me, why would anybody
willingly do that to themselves. Most don't,
most are Christians in name only. They go
to church, half listen to the sermon, and they've
done they're duty for the week.

I don't even understand sin, or the concept of
sin, so the rest of it is whackoville to me.

Quote: FrGamble

....what we do in the midst of suffering? There is no explanation that can be given. You can say God did this or that is just the way life is or you can point out the details of what you think led to this tragedy - none of it offers a adequate solution to the person who is suffering.

The trick isn't to accept the possibility of immortality in the future, or infinity in the past, the trick is to be ok with the now.

Death gives meaning to life.

I find it odd that so many times, it is the dying that need to comfort the living.

Quote: petroglyph

The trick isn't to accept the possibility of immortality in the future, or infinity in the past, the trick is to be ok with the now.
Death gives meaning to life.
I find it odd that so many times, it is the dying that need to comfort the living.

"the benign indifference of the universe" --- Albert Camus

The universe has no meaning other than
what we give it.

Quote: Nareed

When bad things happen, turning to a fictional character for help isn't going to improve the situation.

Turning to a real person who loves you and knows what it is like to triumph over suffering will greatly improve your situation by giving you hope and strengthening you against the temptation to give up or turn to illegal or immoral means to deal with the problem.

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Say I'm experiencing financial difficulties and then get sick. What you think I should do is cry out "Help me, Obi-wan Kenobi! You're my only hope." Or pray to your god?

Perhaps I should try something really crazy, like taking out a loan on my credit card, or asking friends for help, or looking up whether my insurance will cover my condition.

Nah. That won't ever work.

Of course you should do something like that. Prayer will help you to see clearly exactly those good ideas and practical solutions. The worst thing you can do is panic and follow your previous suggestion which was what Job's poor friends suggested, namely to curse God and die.

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Easy: Jehovah is a cruel, sadistic bastard. He boasts about Job to Satan, then suggests the latter torture the former to settle a bet.

Suppose I were to tell you "Hey, this guy Joe you like so much, I bet he'd lose his faith if I kidnapped his family, torched his place, stole his identity, and injected him with HIV."

First remember YHWH suggested no such thing, that was Satan. God protected Job in this story. I might need to remind you again to skip the five verses you find so distasteful and read the 40 chapters that are what the Book of Job is really about. Your analogy fails to be true to the story in that Job suffers things like earthquakes, robbers, fires, ill health, roof collapses, they are not things that one person does. However, they are things we all go through. The question, the important one you keep missing, is what happens when these things inevitable effect us all in one way or another? Do you give up, doubt God's love or His presence, do you curse Him and get angry, do stupid things that make everything worse? The Scriptures offer the option of trusting and having hope that God is present unseen in the midst of our struggles. This gives us the patience of Job and the perseverance that we need to move forward. What other options do you propose?