Evolution and the Pope

Quote: FrGamble

I am very glad you are such a generous and kind person and I have no doubt that an atheist can be these things. However, I wonder if you are these things in spite of your atheistic beliefs or because of them? The reality is that atheism taken to its frightening logical conclusion would lead one to only care for themselves, avoid pain at all costs, and enjoy the brief moments you have alive the best you can until you slip out into nothingness. Nobody really lives this way because atheism is an intellectual argument fueled by emotions and bad experiences with God, religion, or life. That is why you and Bob were so quick to point out that atheism is not a way of life or an ideology; because if you really allowed it to influence how you live I doubt you would be so willing to give to charity and be the generous person you are. By the way, far too often Christians live life as if God was just an intellectual argument fueled by emotions and bad experiences with life. This type of Christian can be hateful and yet say he/she loves Jesus. Christianity is not a religion of the head, but a real relationship with Jesus Christ whom we love with all our heart, mind, and soul.

Padre, when did I state that being a good person was due to being an atheist. Atheism is a lack of belief. Doing good is just something I do because it makes me feel good, which, actually, is a selfish reason. So, if feeling good is selfish but the catalyst for the feeling is doing good for others, we have quite the conundrum.

Quote: FrGamble

Ace I don't know. Maybe I would ask the aliens how they can perform miracles and where they came from? Of course being higher beings they would say that God created them and all the universe and they would be amazed that there are actually "smart" people who doubt that. Then monkeys would fly out of their butts. Come on why would you say that we made God? We can't make anything, yet everything exists. Where did that come from? Where did consciousness come from? Did we make that ourselves?

I think just the opposite, that being "higher beings" would ensure they did not believe in a god

Quote: Nareed

If you stub your toe or have an hour-long electrolysis session without anesthetic, you're in pain. It lasts a little while and then it's gone. When you're in constant pain, say from cancer and chemotherapy, or are part of a despised minority, or your work goes unappreciated, among other things, then you're suffering.

So could we say that temporary pain is temporary suffering? Listen, even if you stick to your artificial distinction between pain and suffering do you want to hold to the idea that not everyone suffers? I reckon that most everyone in life has some kind of constant pain. You give some good examples of not being appreciated, persecution because of beliefs, incurable sickness, I would add things like addictions, fears, anxiety, depression, and broken relationships. I really doubt there is anyone in the world that wouldn't fall somewhere on this list at some time of their lives.

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I wouldn't. Not in every case. Bill Gates, for example, has so much money that a few millions of dollars is to him what a couple of hundreds is for you.

Okay, but he doesn't have to give anything at all. He is moved to think beyond himself and focuses on the other. This is the hallmark of virtue.

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Investing time and effort for a career is not suffering. Getting paid a handsome fee, and rightly so, for your services is not suffering, either

I guess someone could be just in it for the money and do back surgery without really caring about the patient and just using them as a means to a selfish end. However, I can't picture a doctor actually doing that. There are so many other ways you can get rich without having to invest so much into your career and without actually having to serve others.

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You should see what I'm not saying. If that were so, no one would ever do anything good by your standards. it wouldn't be possible.

Totally lost me here. What I am saying is that for someone to do anything good it requires them to not think of themselves first but rather to focus on the plight or situation of the other. The beautiful paradox of human life is that when we do this we are never more happy and fulfilled. For example true love is found when your lover sacrifices for you not when you sacrifice for him/her.

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Oh, please! Why, then, are all passion plays focused entirely on the physical suffering? Without any word about any other kind?

If you know who Christ is then it is implied and understood. It is also harder to express the mental and emotional anguish of Jesus then it is to show his tremendous physical suffering. Usually for the Stations of the Cross for example there is always a brief prayer or reflection about each station that tries to delve deeper into the suffering Christ endures.

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You know, even in Roman times, crucifixion was rather rare. Not an everyday occurrence. Had God wanted to show he is "with" us in that way, he should have had himself incarnated into a poor peasant, then spent a human lifetime eking out a living.

Umm...that is pretty much what He did. He lived the vast majority of His life in obscurity as a son of a poor carpenter.

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Naturally it varies and there are diverse motivations. But I can tell you if and when they go about it, they do so without the need of a threat of eternal damnation.

With the atheist track record in modern history maybe they could benefit from the threat of eternal damnation.

Quote: FrGamble

Christianity is not a religion of the head, but a real relationship with Jesus Christ whom we love with all our heart, mind, and soul.

A frightening concept, one that has caused a whole
lot of grief for a huge number of people. History
has shown us what this cultish 'love' is capable
of. Ask the 10's of thousands of witches who were
burned at the stake in Jesus name. They have a
different take on Christian love and forgiveness.

Quote: Evenbob

What you
end up with is a religion that has no foundation
at all, not even one built on sand.

I refuse to accept this from the guy who thinks all his questions are answered without even having to ask them and that he just knows the universe is eternal because it answers all those questions without having to think or use our intellect. I have tried to show you over and over the scientific evidence, some of the historical evidence, the logical consistency, and the philosophical underpinnings behind my Catholic faith and all you say is it's not even built on sand?!? It stands on solid rock. After 2,000 years of people trying to knock it down or blow it over it still stands strong today and forever. I might have failed in your mind to demonstration the solid foundation of my faith, but at least I tried. You have done nothing to support your own opinions and beliefs but have been content to attack mine with often distorted history and lies.

Quote: FrGamble

I refuse to accept this from the guy who thinks all his questions are answered without even having to ask them and that he just knows the universe is eternal because it answers all those questions without having to think or use our intellect. I have tried to show you over and over the scientific evidence, some of the historical evidence, the logical consistency, and the philosophical underpinnings behind my Catholic faith and all you say is it's not even built on sand. It stands on solid rock and after 2,000 years of people trying to knock it down or blow it over it still stands strong today and forever. I might have failed in your mind to demonstration the solid foundation of my faith, but at least I tried. You have done nothing to support your own opinions and beliefs but have been content to attack mine with often distorted history and lies.

So, before humankind padre, who believed in God? The dinosaurs, the single cell organisms in the primordial ooze? If man does not exist, god does not exist.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Quote: FrGamble

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

"Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?"

Quote: FrGamble

After 2,000 years of people trying to knock it down or blow it over it still stands strong today .

And a shadow of what it once was. For
a thousand years it was the most powerful
and influential organization in the world.
It's mighty power was felt in every corner
of the civilized world. Pope's led war's
and ordered crusades and inquisitions.
The chuches power and wealth grew
by leaps and bounds.

Today it's marked by constant scandal,
with problems getting nuns and priests
to devote there lives to it, and run by
an old man dressed in funny clothes
who rides around in a bulletproof pope-
mobile. Oh how for the great have fallen.

Quote: aceofspades

"Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?"

"Did you know your message would be a record breaker?"