Evolution and the Pope

Quote: Nareed

See, you're so focused on suffering you even twist things around. Pain is a certainty for all people, not suffering. read what I said again. I said many people will suffer, not that it was a certainty for all or even most.

okay, I think of pain as suffering so I understood you to be saying all people suffer. I'm curious as to what your distinction is between pain and suffering?

Quote:

What is the answer to this fundamental difficulty for humanity? Christ shows the world that we should strive to alleviate the sufferings of others whom we are called to love and that the only way one takes away the suffering of others is by wiling to undergo some suffering themselves.

Quote: Nareed

Emphasis added

In other words, if I can relieve someone of their suffering without suffering myself, that's not a virtuous act? If Bill Gates can ease the lot of thousands of people and help them, without suffering even mild discomfort himself, that's not a virtuous act? If a doctor can perform surgery on someone's back and ease their life-long pain, without suffering himself, that's not a virtuous act?

Now I think I understand where your confusion is. You don't equate the mental or emotional pain we feel as suffering. I would look at someone willing to give away millions of their own dollars as a willingness to suffer for others, and very virtuous. A doctor who performs a surgery gives his time and talent, which he spent considerable amounts of money and effort on acquiring, to heal a patient. He suffers for them and it is virtuous. You are not going to be able to relieve the suffering of someone else without first putting their needs above your own. It might not be physical pain but it is a kind of suffering; of not thinking about you first - and that is virtuous in all its forms. This is what Christ teaches us through His cross. For suffering to end we need to be willing to endure, share, or relieve the burdens of others. A selfish person cannot do this.

Quote:

Jesus did a pantomime of suffering. By all accounts his life was a superlative one given the standards of the times. He did not work from sun-up til sun-down, six days a week, week after week, at back-breaking labor for bare subsistence and a pittance, did he?. He did not lose any of his children, did he? He did not experience hunger or disease.

He died a horrible, long, drawn-out and exceedingly painful death? Yes, he did. So did 6,000 slaves in Rome a few decades earlier. Except Jesus wasn't a slave, nor was he forced to fight and kill to entertain the Romans. A few decades after Jesus, many Christians were also crucified and set on fire (not necessarily after they had expired), others were torn apart by dogs.

This is just to name a few, you understand. Our ancestors had an unpleasant knack for creatively painful ways to carry out executions. Torturer was an occupation from ancient times all the way to the late Renaissance. Literally millions of people have died horrible, painful deaths.

And of all of them, Jesus alone could have avoided his. He could work miracles, could he not? He is supposed to be an aspect of God or something, isn't he? Submitting to a painful death, then, is more like mockery of actual human suffering.

Aha, once again you don't seem to be recognizing any pain other than the physical type. The suffering of the Messiah is not just physical but mental and emotional at a level that we can't comprehend.
You also have forgotten that what all human beings share is the certainty of experiencing pain and/or suffering. Here is God, the all-mighty creator of the universe, who is with us in our most human suffering. God is not distant or immune to our difficulties and pain. When we lose a child, when we are enslaved, when we are forced to entertain, or crucified - the Lord God is no stranger to suffering. He understands us and we can turn to him not as some distant force or a divine cheerleader, but as a brother, a friend, a fellow sufferer. What is more he shows us that our suffering is not in vain, that love overcomes it and it has an end through the power of the Resurrection. By submitting to death, even death on a cross, Jesus shows the depth of His love and that we do not suffer alone and that our suffering will one day be at an end - replaced by joy and peace.

How does atheism deal with the fundamental problem of human suffering? It encourages a vain and impossible effort to avoid it all costs even if it might cause others to suffer or it leads to simple despair and confirming the worthlessness of your life. This is a true mockery of human suffering.

Quote: FrGamble

How does atheism deal with the fundamental problem of human suffering? It encourages a vain and impossible effort to avoid it all costs

You are 100% wrong. Charity does not spring from
a religion, but from the person himself. Look at
Bill Gates, and a hundred other famous atheists
I could name. Gates is one the the most philanthropic
people in the world. He says this about the subject:

"Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient.
There’s a lot more you could be doing on a Sunday morning."

I like this quote from Howard Stern, another big
giver.

"I’m sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don’t think there’s any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock."

Quote: Evenbob

You are 100% wrong. Charity does not spring from
a religion, but from the person himself. Look at
Bill Gates, and a hundred other famous atheists
I could name.

Many atheists do awesome stuff and that is great, they are good people who are willing to suffer for others. What I mean is that atheism itself, as a philosophy or its influence on society, does nothing to promote charity. Religion on the other hand does encourage and enable people who take it seriously to be charitable. Where else would the idea of charity spring from if not religion?

Quote: FrGamble

Many atheists do awesome stuff and that is great, they are good people who are willing to suffer for others. What I mean is that atheism itself, as a philosophy or its influence on society, does nothing to promote charity. Religion on the other hand does encourage and enable people who take it seriously to be charitable. Where else would the idea of charity spring from if not religion?

Atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of god. It is not an organized group attempting to promote anything. Should people who lack a belief have to organize and promote something?

You do know that plenty of Satanists are charitable people…but I suppose that is a religion you would not espouse people join…?

Quote: FrGamble

What I mean is that atheism itself, as a philosophy or its influence on society,

Atheism is not a philosophy.

"A person's philosophy is their "system of principles for guidance in practical affairs." Like ideology, a philosophy comprises of two key elements: it must be a group of beliefs and it must provide guidance. Atheism is not a philosophy for the same reason that it is not an ideology: it's not even a single belief, much less a system of interconnected beliefs, and by itself atheism does not guide anyone anywhere. The same would be true if we defined atheism narrowly as denial of the existence of gods: that single belief is not a system of principles. As with ideology, atheism can be part of a philosophy."

I see your point that atheism is not a person's philosophy, but I imagine not believing that there is a God is a big part of someone's philosophy. It has an effect on how you see the world, how you would interact with other people, how you understand suffering, how you deal with adversity, what you love, etc. This reminds me of a beautiful statement by Fr. Arrupe.

"Nothing is more practical than finding God, than falling in Love in a quite absolute, final way. What you are in love with, what seizes your imagination, will affect everything. It will decide what will get you out of bed in the morning, what you do with your evenings, how you spend your weekends, what you read, whom you know, what breaks your heart, and what amazes you with joy and gratitude. Fall in Love, stay in love, and it will decide everything." Rev. Pedro Arrupe, S.J.

Quote: FrGamble

It has an effect on how you see the world,.

I see the world the same way you do, except
I don't run it through the filter of god first.
I come to the same conclusions about love
and suffering and adversity as you do, I
just do it on my own. It's not that big a deal.

Quote: FrGamble

I see your point that atheism is not a person's philosophy, but I imagine not believing that there is a God is a big part of someone's philosophy. It has an effect on how you see the world, how you would interact with other people, how you understand suffering, how you deal with adversity, what you love, etc. This reminds me of a beautiful statement by Fr. Arrupe.

"Nothing is more practical than finding God, than falling in Love in a quite absolute, final way. What you are in love with, what seizes your imagination, will affect everything. It will decide what will get you out of bed in the morning, what you do with your evenings, how you spend your weekends, what you read, whom you know, what breaks your heart, and what amazes you with joy and gratitude. Fall in Love, stay in love, and it will decide everything." Rev. Pedro Arrupe, S.J.

I know plenty of God-fearing people who sin everyday and are not-charitable.
I know we MUST sin, that is why even thinking of doing something counts as actually doing the sin.
I know hateful, racist people who love God and Jesus.
So, according to you, their religion and beliefs affected how they see the world, right?


Meanwhile, I am an atheist that contributes to multiple charities and believe in my ethics and a do no harm type mentality…but, how can that be, I am an atheist???

Quote: aceofspades

Meanwhile, I am an atheist that contributes to multiple charities and believe in my ethics and a do no harm type mentality…but, how can that be, I am an atheist???

All branches of Christianity use the flawed
premise that without religion to guide us,
we will always make the wrong moral
choices. It's ridiculous. Like you said, I
know more Christians that act like immoral
boneheads than I do atheists that act that
way. It's like the godly people think they
have a get out of jail free card, and atheists
know there is no such thing.

Quote: FrGamble

. Where else would the idea of charity spring from if not religion?

Are you Kind?

I saw a lot of Grateful Dead concerts, over 100.
One of my favorite songs was "Uncle Johns Band"
I got to hear it live 12 times (just looked it up, we deadheads are fanatic about stuff like that)

1st verse
"Well the first days are the hardest days, don't you worry any more
'Cause when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door
Think this through with me, let me know your mind
Oh, oh, what I want to know, is are you kind?"

Last line always made me smile. Jerry always got a huge roar of approval from the crowd after singing that last line :-)

I am an atheist. I give to charity. I consider myself kind :-)