Evolution and the Pope

Quote: FrGamble

The only ones who don't worry about getting in over their heads are those who are content to stay in the kiddie pool. Enjoy your shallow thinking Bob, .

Why the insult, what are you talking about
now. I'm a shallow thinker because I don't
buy the Christian dogma? I'm in very good
company, then. Lots of us shallow thinkers
out there. Like:

Issac Asimov
Arther C Clarke
Woody Allen
Noel Coward
John Huston
Katherine Hepburn
Ridley Scott
Ernest Hemingway
Albert Einstein
Mark Twain
Benjamin Franklin
Abraham Lincoln
Pablo Piccaso
Theodore Roosevelt
Thomas Jefferson

And on and on, shallow thinkers all.

I was making an harsh analogy to the times you have given advice to just accept this world without thinking about it or using your intellect. Once I took you to even say we should be more like the plants and animals, not the thinking human beings we are. You sometimes say that your ideas, about the universe for example, answer all your questions without even asking them; it is just something you know instinctively. This to me is an example of the shallow thinking of an unexamined life. The list of people you quoted, many of whom believe in God as a creator of the universe, would not agree with you. They would encourage us to deeply think about the things we have been discussing.

I need to apologize for the urine part of my critique of your thought because that was just uncalled for, however I was upset as I imagine everyone on your list would be, for suggesting that discussing and pursuing the truth can be a dangerous thing. As Jesus once said to His disciples, "Go out into the deep water for a catch." Let's together continue to go into the deep and not settle for the shallow water where it is safe and you can easily see the bottom. The real answers and the real mysteries are not found there!

Quote: FrGamble

I was making an harsh analogy to the times you have given advice to just accept this world without thinking about it or using your intellect.

I studied it for decades and came to the
conclusion that it's a waste of time. Like
the sages say, you're born knowing it
all anyway. That's why they meditate in
the East, and use riddles in the Far East.
No reading, no lectures, no intellectual
talk. The master gives you a riddle and
you meditate on it. Like:

A man of great strength cannot lift his
leg. Why.

What is the sound of one hand clapping.

Why are the mountains covered with snow.

Riddles like this have no real answer, they
are intended to wake you up to your true
nature and the nature of the universe.
Some meditate on one riddle for years,
what's the hurry. If you were to tell a zen
master his riddles were silly, he would
wholeheartedly agree with you. If you said
they were brilliant or stupid, he would agree
with that also. He also might say something
like 'you're catching on, keep trying'.

Yeah I agree it [edit: it refers to the riddles and Zen philosophy Evenbob describes] does sound like a waste of time.

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah I agree it does sound like a waste of time.

I don't understand where the Pope is in all this: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/11/14/israel-bans-renowned-doctor-and-human-rights-activist-mads-gilbert-from-entering-gaza-for-life/

How, how can anyone rationalize this? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12814#.VGhI-PnF9tw How could anyone see these two articles and still have faith in the Catholic church is beyond me.

Pope John retires in mid reign, and gets a seat on the board.

The silence is deafening. You find out who owns you when you find out who you are not allowed to criticize.

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah I agree it [edit: it refers to the riddles and Zen philosophy Evenbob describes] does sound like a waste of time.

Nothing is a waste of time, it's not possible. You
believe that only if you think you have some
purpose in being here. Which you don't, other
than ones we make up so we'll feel better.

Quote: Evenbob

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah I agree it [edit: it refers to the riddles and Zen philosophy Evenbob describes] does sound like a waste of time.

Nothing is a waste of time, it's not possible. You
believe that only if you think you have some
purpose in being here. Which you don't, other
than ones we make up so we'll feel better.

I'm beginning to think arguing with you is a waste of time.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm beginning to think arguing with you is a waste of time.

How is that possible.

Quote: FrGamble

I agree that embracing suffering or causing it for some false or pious virtue is disgusting, it is a good thing Christianity does not teach such things.

Doesn't it?

Quote:

Nevertheless, the first part of the quote is true, suffering is a certainty for all people.

See, you're so focused on suffering you even twist things around. Pain is a certainty for all people, not suffering. read what I said again. I said many people will suffer, not that it was a certainty for all or even most.

Quote:

What is the answer to this fundamental difficulty for humanity? Christ shows the world that we should strive to alleviate the sufferings of others whom we are called to love and that the only way one takes away the suffering of others is by wiling to undergo some suffering themselves.

Emphasis added

In other words, if I can relieve someone of their suffering without suffering myself, that's not a virtuous act? If Bill Gates can ease the lot of thousands of people and help them, without suffering even mild discomfort himself, that's not a virtuous act? If a doctor can perform surgery on someone's back and ease their life-long pain, without suffering himself, that's not a virtuous act?

Quote:

Jesus sets in motion the movement that is meant to ultimately take away the suffering of the world, but alas it comes at a cost, namely our willingness to put others' needs above our own and be willing to help them by sharing or taking their burdens.

Jesus did a pantomime of suffering. By all accounts his life was a superlative one given the standards of the times. He did not work from sun-up til sun-down, six days a week, week after week, at back-breaking labor for bare subsistence and a pittance, did he?. He did not lose any of his children, did he? He did not experience hunger or disease.

He died a horrible, long, drawn-out and exceedingly painful death? Yes, he did. So did 6,000 slaves in Rome a few decades earlier. Except Jesus wasn't a slave, nor was he forced to fight and kill to entertain the Romans. A few decades after Jesus, many Christians were also crucified and set on fire (not necessarily after they had expired), others were torn apart by dogs.

This is just to name a few, you understand. Our ancestors had an unpleasant knack for creatively painful ways to carry out executions. Torturer was an occupation from ancient times all the way to the late Renaissance. Literally millions of people have died horrible, painful deaths.

And of all of them, Jesus alone could have avoided his. He could work miracles, could he not? He is supposed to be an aspect of God or something, isn't he? Submitting to a painful death, then, is more like mockery of actual human suffering.

Quote: FrGamble

Quote: Evenbob

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah I agree it [edit: it refers to the riddles and Zen philosophy Evenbob describes] does sound like a waste of time.

Nothing is a waste of time, it's not possible. You
believe that only if you think you have some
purpose in being here. Which you don't, other
than ones we make up so we'll feel better.

I'm beginning to think arguing with you is a waste of time.

We have an epiphany!