Evolution and the Pope

Excellent book on how humans determine rights/wrongs WITHOUT GOD


Rights From Wrongs

Quote: FrGamble

Where else would the idea of charity spring from if not religion?

Hypothetical:

We can all agree that, on a very limited basis, there are still people in certain remote parts of the Earth that have never had contact with any humans outside their own tribe and do not believe in any religion.

Say a man got lost in the mountains/jungle and was severely dehydrated and malnourished. He happened upon one of these peoples—based upon your argument, padre, these people, not having an organized religion, would not help their fellow man. I disagree.

Quote: FrGamble

okay, I think of pain as suffering so I understood you to be saying all people suffer. I'm curious as to what your distinction is between pain and suffering?

If you stub your toe or have an hour-long electrolysis session without anesthetic, you're in pain. It lasts a little while and then it's gone. When you're in constant pain, say from cancer and chemotherapy, or are part of a despised minority, or your work goes unappreciated, among other things, then you're suffering.

Quote:

Now I think I understand where your confusion is. You don't equate the mental or emotional pain we feel as suffering.

You need to do some more thinking.

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I would look at someone willing to give away millions of their own dollars as a willingness to suffer for others,

I wouldn't. Not in every case. Bill Gates, for example, has so much money that a few millions of dollars is to him what a couple of hundreds is for you.

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A doctor who performs a surgery gives his time and talent, which he spent considerable amounts of money and effort on acquiring, to heal a patient. He suffers for them and it is virtuous.

Investing time and effort for a career is not suffering. Getting paid a handsome fee, and rightly so, for your services is not suffering, either

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You are not going to be able to relieve the suffering of someone else without first putting their needs above your own.

You should see what I'm not saying. If that were so, no one would ever do anything good by your standards. it wouldn't be possible.

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Aha, once again you don't seem to be recognizing any pain other than the physical type. The suffering of the Messiah is not just physical but mental and emotional at a level that we can't comprehend.

Oh, please! Why, then, are all passion plays focused entirely on the physical suffering? Without any word about any other kind?

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Here is God, the all-mighty creator of the universe, who is with us in our most human suffering.

You know, even in Roman times, crucifixion was rather rare. Not an everyday occurrence. Had God wanted to show he is "with" us in that way, he should have had himself incarnated into a poor peasant, then spent a human lifetime eking out a living.

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How does atheism deal with the fundamental problem of human suffering?

Naturally it varies and there are diverse motivations. But I can tell you if and when they go about it, they do so without the need of a threat of eternal damnation.

Quote: aceofspades

/q]
We can all agree that, on a very limited basis, there are still people in certain remote parts of the Earth that have never had contact with any humans outside their own tribe and do not believe in any religion.

I posted this before. In New Guinea there
is a people who has extreme limited contact
with other people. They have no religion,
they believe all living things are sacred and
deserve our respect. No priests, no nothing.
They are kind and gentle and non warring.
They get along very well. It's called human
nature.

Imagine that.

Quote: aceofspades

Hypothetical:

We can all agree that, on a very limited basis, there are still people in certain remote parts of the Earth that have never had contact with any humans outside their own tribe and do not believe in any religion.

I don't think so. Religion is one of the most persistent and pernicious aspects of human culture. I don't think you can have any kind of organized society without religion arising, the more so among a primitive, isolated people.

I agree with Nareed on this point, religion comes natural to us as does being nice to people. This is because we are made in the image and likeness of God. How else could we describe these selfless kind acts that characterize healthy people even atheists? We are hard wired to believe life is sacred, mysterious, and with purpose. We are also filled with a natural tendency to do good because that is how we were made.

Quote: FrGamble

I agree with Nareed on this point, religion comes natural to us as does being nice to people. This is because we are made in the image and likeness of God. How else could we describe these selfless kind acts that characterize healthy people even atheists? We are hard wired to believe life is sacred, mysterious, and with purpose. We are also filled with a natural tendency to do good because that is how we were made.

But man made God padre, not the other way around.

If aliens showed up and told us that Jesus was a mortal man that they helped perform "miracles", what would you say?

Quote: aceofspades

Meanwhile, I am an atheist that contributes to multiple charities and believe in my ethics and a do no harm type mentality…but, how can that be, I am an atheist???

I am very glad you are such a generous and kind person and I have no doubt that an atheist can be these things. However, I wonder if you are these things in spite of your atheistic beliefs or because of them? The reality is that atheism taken to its frightening logical conclusion would lead one to only care for themselves, avoid pain at all costs, and enjoy the brief moments you have alive the best you can until you slip out into nothingness. Nobody really lives this way because atheism is an intellectual argument fueled by emotions and bad experiences with God, religion, or life. That is why you and Bob were so quick to point out that atheism is not a way of life or an ideology; because if you really allowed it to influence how you live I doubt you would be so willing to give to charity and be the generous person you are. By the way, far too often Christians live life as if God was just an intellectual argument fueled by emotions and bad experiences with life. This type of Christian can be hateful and yet say he/she loves Jesus. Christianity is not a religion of the head, but a real relationship with Jesus Christ whom we love with all our heart, mind, and soul.

Quote: aceofspades

But man made God padre, not the other way around.

If aliens showed up and told us that Jesus was a mortal man that they helped perform "miracles", what would you say?

Ace I don't know. Maybe I would ask the aliens how they can perform miracles and where they came from? Of course being higher beings they would say that God created them and all the universe and they would be amazed that there are actually "smart" people who doubt that. Then monkeys would fly out of their butts. Come on why would you say that we made God? We can't make anything, yet everything exists. Where did that come from? Where did consciousness come from? Did we make that ourselves?

Quote: FrGamble

We are also filled with a natural tendency to do good because that is how we were made.

It's how we ended up, you mean. Early man
certainly wasn't kind to strangers outside
his clan, then outside his village, and
eventually outside his country. Our first
instinct is survival at all costs, and when
we have that done, when we're comfortable,
we can do good at our leisure. We're
hard wired to survive, and if that means
having our fellow man as our next meal,
a lot of that went on too.

I'm fascinated at the convoluted logic you
use to make your points. What isn't true,
can't be proven to be true, you just assume
is true and go on from there. What you
end up with is a religion that has no foundation
at all, not even one built on sand.