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Pope Francis
| May 23rd, 2018 at 7:37:43 AM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
This is one reason why our discussions have been short recently. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| May 23rd, 2018 at 8:43:10 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Sorry, I thought you would find that witty. Anyway, the priesthood in the Catholic Church is a Sacrament. The Sacraments use physical realities to bestow invisible Grace. The physical realities like water speak to the invisible realities bestowed. So in baptism we use the gift of water to show the cleansing of sin, the death to sin, the rebirth to new life, and the nourishing growth of the spiritual life like the rains from Heaven. The Sacrament of Holy Orders is about making Christ, the High Priest present to lead our worship, forgive sins, and celebrate the Last Supper. The Latin for this is in persona Chrisit, in the person of Christ. Therefore men sacramentally show this reality. It is also true as someone had early pointed out that Christ Himself chose 12 men to be Apostles and the first priests. Just like we are not to change the food and drink used at the Last Supper to institute the Eucharist we are not able to change something that Christ Himself did in establishing the Sacrament of Holy Orders. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| May 23rd, 2018 at 10:31:34 AM permalink | |
| Wizard Administrator Member since: Oct 23, 2012 Threads: 239 Posts: 6095 | This is probably beside the point, but I think I could show a high probability that at least one water molecule in 750 ml. bottle of wine would have passed through Jesus' body at some point in his life. Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber |
| May 23rd, 2018 at 11:03:30 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Gimme a break, you can make anything you want a 'sacrament'. Using the outhouse could be a sacrament if you wanted. It's just a word. I just made feeding my cats a sacrament. So what, it's meaningless. Can't make women priests because the all male priesthood is a sacrament, makes it sound scary and oh so official. It could be undone with the stroke of a pen. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| May 23rd, 2018 at 2:56:23 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | The 12 apostles were most likely between the ages of 13 and 30 when they started following Jesus. The minimum age to become a priest is now 25. I am not aware of a maximum. If their gender was a sacrement, why not their age? "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| May 23rd, 2018 at 7:45:45 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Interesting question. Two thoughts. First, age is not as significant as our gender. Our age changes all the time, literally. However our gender, at least according to the Catholic understanding cannot change. Our gender is more fundamental to who we are for our whole lives. My second thought is that I am pretty sure the minimum age for priesthood is a discipline imposed by the Church for practical reasons. I reckon there were priests as young as 13 in some time in the Church's history. As you mentioned maybe one of the Apostles was around that age, we don't know for sure. In this way it is more like celibacy. Some of the Apostles were married but the Latin Church today requires of its priests the discipline of celibacy. In fact the two disciplines might be related. There was a time when simony was a problem for the Church, married priests promoting their young sons to the priesthood and even to be bishops. Both an age minimum and celibacy seems like a practical solution to some of those problems and neither of them effect the most fundamental aspect of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| May 24th, 2018 at 5:09:36 AM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | That is how important YOU think age is vs gender. We don't know how important it is to Jesus because he didn't say. The marriage thing is another issue - clearly in the Bible one of the deciples/priests was married, and it was ok, but then the church decided that it wasn't. The whole point is, all of these things about what qualifies or disqualifies someone to be a priest were made after the fact, and are not based on anything that Jesus said. You are even making stuff up now - age isn't as important because it is always changing?!? Age is important because clearly Jesus demonstrated that you must be young to start the priesthood, since he didn't pick anyone older. Marriage is not important clearly because Jesus had both married and unmarried deciples. And back to one of my original comments, gender also isn't important because Mary Magdeline was just as much an apostle/deciple (and possibly even a lover) as the rest of them, but her story wasn't selected to be in the Bible. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| May 24th, 2018 at 11:23:54 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
The ironic thing is, women are a very important part of the Jesus myth story. And the get royally screwed by the Jesus church later. The men get to be the leaders and the women get to be the 'bride' of Jesus? Oh boy. "The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that all nuns are mystically betrothed to Jesus Christ. In this actual marriage ceremony a young woman dressed in white, makes a public vow to the Church. After this public profession, the young woman is told that she has become the bride of Christ and must consecrate herself to God “until death”. In this subtle way the Catholic Church is offering to the young woman a substitute for marriage to a real man." Scary weird stuff, for sure.. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| May 24th, 2018 at 12:15:39 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I feel it is pretty common sense that gender is more important than what our age is. One is fundamental to who we are and unchanging the other is not. Do you disagree with this?
He did give us a brain though and reason to use in making these decisions.
The Church that Jesus established can indeed decided certain things about how the Sacraments are celebrated as long as the fundamental aspects that Jesus said or did are maintained. We don't speak Aramaic, Greek, or not a lot of Latin anymore. We don't dress in period clothes from that time either. The whole point is that the Apostles and early followers of Jesus based on what he said and did developed the Sacraments. We don't have to slavishly follow exactly what Christ did when it doesn't effect the fundamental nature of the Sacrament and/or is of great pastoral or practical advantage.
This how important YOU think age and marriage is, but the Church sees both age and marriage status as something not essential to the priesthood. There were after all young and older and married and single priests.
I don't know what you mean that her story wasn't selected to be in the Bible. She is one of our greatest saints and as you said is honored with the title, "Apostle of the Apostles". She was not ever ordained a priest however even though her and Mary, the Mother of God, would have been maybe the greatest priests ever. So gender is obviously very important and I don't understand why you think it is not. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| May 24th, 2018 at 12:19:20 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
That certainly sounds incorrect, I'd like to see your source. Marriage and Religious Life are two very different vocations in the Church. There is no "actual" marriage ceremony for a young woman to become religious, that is wrong. Again these are two very different vocations. In fact marriage is a sacrament when becoming a nun or religious sister is not a sacrament. There is no substitute for marriage or fake marriage to the Church. I know many nuns who would be quite offended you so misunderstand their vocation. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |