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Quote: Mission146

Also, aren't corporations legally the equivalent of people anyway? .

Bahahaha. Such a good point. We shouldn't be stealing from these "people" just because they are highly successful.

Where have I heard that before?

Quote: petroglyph

I'm not sure of the term "carriers", I think there is only one "carrier"? But multiple ISP's.

This is an example of what I consider "wrongful censorship" https://nypost.com/2021/01/11/facebook-censors-ron-paul/

Right, which ISP’s are engaging in censorship?

You are comparing Facebook censorship to a phone company dropping calls if they don’t like what you are saying, that is apples to oranges.

Generally I do not think Facebook should censor anything, but I would never argue that they don’t have the right to do so.

Quote: petroglyph

For all intents and purposes, FB and a couple other SM corporations [affiliated with NSA] own the public square. They control the message, just like prior to the domination of eyeballs that was held by big tv company's. The message is being manipulated to steer the public.

"The last official act of any government, is to loot the treasury". GW

Okay, so that's what they do. They control the message; they give people what they want to see (the message that they agree with); they attract traffic; they create a mechanism for advertising revenue---profit.

In other words, they have completely triumphed---which is my point. If Facebook were a retailer of some kind, Conservatives would be calling them an, "American success story."

I guess my point is that I don't really disagree with you as to what the facts of the case are. Our disagreement is whether or not this should be considered a remediable problem. I say it's not. They won. That's all.

Quote: Mission146

[I guess my point is that I don't really disagree with you as to what the facts of the case are. Our disagreement is whether or not this should be considered a remediable problem. I say it's not. They won. That's all.

Hear hear.

Quote: Mission146

If nothing else, the schools were better off before...in my opinion, anyway. For one thing, you didn't teach with a single-minded devotion to kids passing the standardized tests. State tests (in the public schools I attended) were a thing and you spent maybe a month of your time prepping for those, but I actually witnessed it become nearly the sole focal point of your basic class subjects (math, reading, history, science).

Sorry, but I find this a teacher cop-out.

Any course in education has goals and parameters. You have to cover W, X, Y, and Z. I you do not do this then as a teacher you are not doing your job. Lets use a very basic gambling example.

First week of dealer school is usually cheque handling and card handling. So I hire an instructor and tell them after 1 week a student must be able to:

1. Hold 20 chips in their hand.
2. Cut those 20 into 10 stacks of 2 in less than 5 seconds
3. Be able to riffle 2 decks to a set procedure in less than a minute.

At the end, those that pass can move to learning BJ. Those that fail get to work on the dish clean line at the buffet.

Now, shouldn't the instructor make sure the students can do those 3 things to standard?

Ditto on a standardized test. Civics class? You had better learn these X things. Math? Ditto.

Teachers get upset about it because it measures their effectiveness.

Quote: gamerfreak

Right, which ISP’s are engaging in censorship?

You are comparing Facebook censorship to a phone company dropping calls if they don’t like what you are saying, that is apples to oranges.

Generally I do not think Facebook should censor anything, but I would never argue that they don’t have the right to do so.

I don't think they are, what people think they are. But I'm not going to provide lengthy support for why I believe that.

"Zucks in the club" imo

Quote: petroglyph

I'm not sure of the term "carriers", I think there is only one "carrier"? But multiple ISP's.

This is an example of what I consider "wrongful censorship" https://nypost.com/2021/01/11/facebook-censors-ron-paul/

Why is he going on FB to push a message
It's the wrong place for anything decisive or political.
I actually love FB
I'm all over it posting pics of my trips
My friends loving my trip reports
BUT
Everybody also knows they post anything political, I unfriend them.
I dont post political BS on FB and neither do my friends.
That's how friends treat each other.
They leave the BS out
Yet this is the forum Ron Paul chooses.
Why somebody's house
Why not have a press conference
Why not have a press release
This complaining is akin to seeing a stadium full of people and demanding entrance to display your political sign because the street corner ain't cuttin it.

Quote: AZDuffman

Sorry, but I find this a teacher cop-out.

Any course in education has goals and parameters. You have to cover W, X, Y, and Z. I you do not do this then as a teacher you are not doing your job. Lets use a very basic gambling example.

First week of dealer school is usually cheque handling and card handling. So I hire an instructor and tell them after 1 week a student must be able to:

1. Hold 20 chips in their hand.
2. Cut those 20 into 10 stacks of 2 in less than 5 seconds
3. Be able to riffle 2 decks to a set procedure in less than a minute.

At the end, those that pass can move to learning BJ. Those that fail get to work on the dish clean line at the buffet.

Now, shouldn't the instructor make sure the students can do those 3 things to standard?

Ditto on a standardized test. Civics class? You had better learn these X things. Math? Ditto.

Teachers get upset about it because it measures their effectiveness.

It depends on how you define, "Effectiveness." Is a teacher, "Effective," because that teacher can get the majority of his/her students to get passing scores (and a good overall score) on a standardized test whilst a certain percentage of the students in the class aren't learning anything that they didn't already know...or couldn't have figured out for themselves by reading the book without any additional instruction?

You then have to look at the standardized tests themselves as something infallible, which I think would be a mistake. While the standardized tests theoretically exist as a metric that compares one student (or school district) to another, how do we know that's even a useful measurement? Here are 500 questions across a handful of subjects, let's see who can get the most questions right. How do we know that knowing the answers to those questions even really accomplishes anything?

The difference with dealer school is that you're teaching people to complete a specific task, or a variety of specific tasks all related to one thing. Other than Joint Vocational (or equivalent) classes, that's simply not the goal of an entire school system. That said, I don't profess to know what the actual goal of a school system is or should be.

The graduation rates are no different than the standardized tests, so those aren't a useful tool. You just gimmick the graduation rates to make it really difficult to fail and gimmick the standardized tests in various ways---if not outright straight up cheating.

These days, I guess my focus would be on teaching critical thinking skills and researching skills. I think math perhaps benefits from standardized testing of some kind...or just make everyone take the SAT or ACT whether or not they have college plans. Going back to the standardized tests and your example of a Civics test: I might have learned a bunch of specific dates in that class to then memorize and regurgitate on the standardized test as appropriate, but that doesn't teach me anything about how Government works, does it? Similar with definitions, learning the definition of a word and actually being able to apply that definition to a question are two totally different things.

Also, standardized testing is more encompassing than it was when you or I were in school. There now exists a Common Core standardized test for Phys. Ed., if that tells you anything.

Quote: rxwine

Republicans start focusing their talking points on the people hiring them instead of poor illegals seeking work, I’ll start listening.

I can talk about THIS Republican (me!) I want prison time for anyone hiring an illegal alien. I want the government to make it easy for a small business (or large business, for that matter) to ascertain if ANY potential employee is here legally or not. So I'm thinking we agree?

Quote: Mission146

It depends on how you define, "Effectiveness." Is a teacher, "Effective," because that teacher can get the majority of his/her students to get passing scores (and a good overall score) on a standardized test whilst a certain percentage of the students in the class aren't learning anything that they didn't already know...or couldn't have figured out for themselves by reading the book without any additional instruction?

You then have to look at the standardized tests themselves as something infallible, which I think would be a mistake. While the standardized tests theoretically exist as a metric that compares one student (or school district) to another, how do we know that's even a useful measurement? Here are 500 questions across a handful of subjects, let's see who can get the most questions right. How do we know that knowing the answers to those questions even really accomplishes anything?

I would say that any course has goals for the students and the teacher gets rated on meeting those goals. Now, in HS you rate different courses different. Math is easy to standardize, though some lefty cooks are calling math itself "racist" and trying their best to undo this. Science is pretty close. These days a good high school will have some IT, that can be measured by passing the certification tests. History they need to do a better job on, how many USA students cannot even put the Civil War in the correct half century?

People cry "it should not be just memorization" but much of life is memorization. When I was a cashier I had to memorize codes. Today I have to memorize what client wants what in what way. Network engineers remember that they should tell people Please Do Not Throw Sausage Pizza Away.

Quote:

The difference with dealer school is that you're teaching people to complete a specific task, or a variety of specific tasks all related to one thing. Other than Joint Vocational (or equivalent) classes, that's simply not the goal of an entire school system. That said, I don't profess to know what the actual goal of a school system is or should be.

The graduation rates are no different than the standardized tests, so those aren't a useful tool. You just gimmick the graduation rates to make it really difficult to fail and gimmick the standardized tests in various ways---if not outright straight up cheating.

Simple answer, have two diplomas. An academic and a general. For the academic you have to pass the tests. For the general you mostly just put in your time. Reality is other than college nobody cares what you did in high school 15 minutes after you leave it.

Quote:

days, I guess my focus would be on teaching critical thinking skills and researching skills. I think math perhaps benefits from standardized testing of some kind...or just make everyone take the SAT or ACT whether or not they have college plans. Going back to the standardized tests and your example of a Civics test: I might have learned a bunch of specific dates in that class to then memorize and regurgitate on the standardized test as appropriate, but that doesn't teach me anything about how Government works, does it? Similar with definitions, learning the definition of a word and actually being able to apply that definition to a question are two totally different things.

Also, standardized testing is more encompassing than it was when you or I were in school. There now exists a Common Core standardized test for Phys. Ed., if that tells you anything.

I'd buy this line if the teachers were teaching this. But they are not. Suburban schools are mixed but seem to do a decent job. Urban schools are wastelands that put out the example we saw above. The real question is why the suburban/urban divide?