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Spanish Word of the Day
| November 2nd, 2013 at 8:36:55 AM permalink | |
| Wizard Administrator Member since: Oct 23, 2012 Threads: 239 Posts: 6095 |
Why is despertar reflexive and madrugar isn't? Yes, I blew it on the tus. I owe 25 push ups for that one. Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber |
| November 2nd, 2013 at 9:07:47 AM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
El verbo es "madrugar" sin ser pronominal. Sin embargo, es también muy común decir "despertarse temprano" It's interesting, because in one lesson on the web, they flat out state that "all Spanish verbs have a reflexive counterpart". But clearly it isn't true. Conversely there are verbs that are always used reflexive sense. Wikipedia lists "repents,laughs, seperated, compalins" Pedro se arrepintió. Pedro se ríe Pedro se queja María y Pedro se separaron One last comment, but you almost never see the term "reflexive" used in a grammar book writte in Spanish or in the DRAE. It is widely used in textbooks written in English about Spanish language. Instead you will see the term "pronomial" which is a superset of reflexive grammar. It also includes phrases like "volverse loco" which indicate a change of state as in "I am becoming crazy". The phrase "reflexive verb" is also an English language construct. Spanish grammarians prefer to think of "reflexive pronouns". I think the idea of them being distinct verbs is helpful when you need a different English verb to translate the straightforward and reflexive sense. |
| November 2nd, 2013 at 9:40:53 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
I should patent my system for not knowing every term and rule of grammar, but I don't actually have a system for that. What I'll do is repeat languages are neither consistent nor wholly rational. And it doesn't matter why. If you delve into every inconsistency and oddity of a language you will 1) have no time for anything else in life and 2) go insane. Here's a few examples: Astronomy means the naming of stars. Astrology means the study of stars Biology means the study of living things Algebra is a misspronunciation of an Arabic name Indestructible means something which cannot be destroyed Inflamable means something that can easily catch flame. Incredible refers to something which cannot be believed. Infamous refers to someone or something with a bad reputation. Not to something or someone without fame. These are all just spur of the moment. There are explanations for most terms, at least common ones, but none are necessary. Languages assign meaning by usage, and that carries inconsistencies aplenty. then, too, no langauge, at least no language with a large number of speakers, is untouched by influences from other languages. That adds more inconsistencies still. English has a number of Latin influences, though some arrived directly, some arrived via Proto-Germanic, some came via Olde French, and some through the Celtic tongues, too. So you can't even draw up a table of Latin suffixes and prefixes in English and expect them all to always mean the same thing. So: Los perros de la pradera (yes, pradera is singular here) madrugan para cavar sus madrigueras. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 2nd, 2013 at 1:20:06 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 | It may be because madrugar is an intransitive verb. Almost all verbs have a transitive and an intransitive meaning. The verb "despertar" is clearly transitive. You can awake another person, your dog, or yourself. So it makes sense that you could use it reflexively. The verb "madrugar" is intransitive, since it refers to something that happens, not something you do to another person or yourself. We have had verbs before that are used as intransitive verbs 99% of the time, but technically they also have a transitive meaning. Verbs like "gustar". Nareed's reaction is normally attempts to use this verb as a transitive verb sound very unusual.
Mike is hardwired to ask "Why?". In English the two translations sound similar: "to wake up" and "to wake up early". It is natural to wonder why they follow different grammar. |
| November 2nd, 2013 at 9:52:06 PM permalink | |
| Wizard Administrator Member since: Oct 23, 2012 Threads: 239 Posts: 6095 |
I've never heard that word. However, flammable certainly does mean that.
Well, I think that "fame" means to be well known in a positive way. To if somebody becomes well known for something bad, they are infamous. However, I'm not an expert on English. Just throwing out a theory. I'm sure Paco can address this better than I can. Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber |
| November 3rd, 2013 at 3:26:51 AM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 | The word "inflammable" is over 600 years old, while "flammable" is about 200 years old. I think we have discussed earlier that the prefix "in-" can mean different things. Sometimes it means "not" and sometimes "in, into, on, upon". The word "famous" originally meant "celebrated" in Latin, so that the original sense of "infamous" was "not-celebrated". But the word "famous" like the word "glamour" has morphed over the centuries so that "famous" means now means "well-known". So we tend to think that Anthony Wiener is now "infamous" because he is well known for a negative reason. |
| November 3rd, 2013 at 8:50:05 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Good for him. And in many situations it's a useful trait. In some, though, it's a waste pf time. Take alnguages. There are "whys" like common roots and derivations, which are useful, but also false cognates and things that just are, which are not. Learnign a language is one thing. Studying it is a different matter. So, for example, when studying English there's no need to wonder why there are a plethora of meaningless "do" scattered all over the landscape. They just are, for whatever reason, and the native users of the language won't understand you if you ommit them or use them differently. BTW, why is a wall called a wall. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 3rd, 2013 at 11:15:37 AM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
I don't know."Wall" is from an Old English word that means fortification. I know some languages distinguish between a fortificatio&n wall around a city or a fort, and a simple partition in a house. There probably is some distinction between "pared" & "muro" in Spanish, but I don't know what is the difference. I know the latter is a cognate of "mural". The Latin word "muralis" meant "of a wall". In the 19th century you said "mural painting", but everyone says simply "mural" today. |
| November 3rd, 2013 at 11:52:22 AM permalink | |
| Wizard Administrator Member since: Oct 23, 2012 Threads: 239 Posts: 6095 | Getting back to jejene, I got a notice that it was my turn to check out Charlotte's Web. I just went to get it this morning. Here is the passage in question:
The lists are in a different order. Let's use the process of elimination to see what jejene could be:
So, that leaves us with: English: midge, gnats. Spanish: jejene, tijereta. A tijera is an earwig, which doesn't seem to match anything on the English list, making this more difficult. Bugs are not my area of expertise. Can someone explain the difference between an earwig, gnat and a midge? Between a gnat and midge, which one is closer in taxonomy to an earwig? Whichever is the answer, I think we can assume the other one is a jejene. Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber |
| November 3rd, 2013 at 12:38:41 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 | I don't think the translator was concerned with a one to one correlation,  Earwigs or tijereta have pincers in front abdomen leading to the old wives tails that they burrow through the ear canal into the brain. Midge's and gnats do not have the pincers, but are characterized by fuzzy antenna.   Jejene's are normally called "sand flies" or colloquially as "no see-ums" in English. They bite very hard considering their size.  |