Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

But in the portrayals of God by believers, it's submission all the way. Otherwise you suffer terrible consequences.

If you touch a burning stove or stick your hand into an electrical socket you will suffer terrible consequences.

Quote: Evenbob

Sigh. Again, you think you see a 'gift',
so you look for a 'giver' till you find
one.

I don't understand your point here. If something exists isn't it natural to ask where it came from? If not from God where did free will come from? Where did your life come from or the universe? How is my seeing creation or "a gift" any different from your insistence that there is no creation or "a giver'? The only difference is that I actually have scientific evidence, logic, philosophy, and theology on my side. You just have a tired quote of trying to see something I want to see, which is exactly what you are doing.

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Free will doesn't exist, it's a non
sensical term, like 'sin'.

Are you not free? Can you not choose to do good or evil?

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If universal morality doesn't exist, and
it doesn't, free will is meaningless.

First of all could you please explain what you mean by this because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.

Secondly, the premises are flawed and we have discussed this before. There is a universal morality. Everyone knows it is wrong to kill an innocent human being or rape a child. These are universal moral truths that cannot be changed because they are grounded in something beyond ourselves and our own volition.

Quote: FrGamble

Are you not free? Can you not choose to do good or evil?

There is good or evil except as concepts. We've
been over this a dozen times.

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There is a universal morality. Everyone knows it is wrong to kill an innocent human being or rape a child.

Yet there are Christian sects that marry off
12 year old girls to grown men. Always
has been. Did they not get the memo
that this is immoral? In war, innocent
people are always killed, often on purpose.
Yet this is not considered sin.

There is no free will, it's just another term to
control people. Look, god gave you something,
aren't you grateful. Let the guilt begin.

Quote: Evenbob

There is good or evil except as concepts. We've
been over this a dozen times.

I think you meant to say, "There is no good or evil except as concepts." What do you mean by that?

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Yet there are Christian sects that marry off
12 year old girls to grown men. Always
has been. Did they not get the memo
that this is immoral?

Do you see the hypocrisy you show in denying there is such a thing as morality and then accusing these strange sects, which I have never heard of before, of being immoral. The question for you is - can you imagine a place, culture, or time in which raping young children is a good? Can you not say that this is a universal moral evil no matter if it is Christians or atheists who would do such things?

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In war, innocent
people are always killed, often on purpose.
Yet this is not considered sin.

Intending to kill innocent people on purpose, even in war, is a grave sin. Do you think it is not?

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There is no free will, it's just another term to
control people. Look, god gave you something,
aren't you grateful. Let the guilt begin.

Please explain to me how teaching that people have freedom is another way to control people?!?

Quote: FrGamble

If you touch a burning stove or stick your hand into an electrical socket you will suffer terrible consequences.

I noticed you do not challenge the premise that God requires submission.

On the other hand, a stove or a socket are lifeless, mindless, amoral things. Not supreme, all-powerful, divine beings. The comparison rings hollow.

Quote: FrGamble

If not from God where did free will come from?

Evolution.

There is a very large, qualitative difference between humanity and the rest of the animal kingdom. This often makes us believe there are many uniquely human mental traits that animals simply lack. But in truth animals have many of the same traits, just at a lower, less consistent level.

Take free will. My dog, M, loved to lie on my bed and play with stuffed animals while I watched TV. But she didn't always play with the toy when I handed it to her. Some times she didn't want to. I'd often trick her into thinking the stuffed toy was alive (don't ask), but that didn't always work. When M didn't want to play at hunting and killing a stuffed animal, she chose not to.

Another thing she liked to do was go out on the front yard and bark at anyone walking past the house. Again she didn't always do so.

If you ask me whether M had free will, I'd say to a limited degree. For example, she always finished every last morsel of food on her plate. Never, not once, did she stop eating until everything was gone. Even at times when she had to throw up before she could continue eating. Clearly she had no control or choice in that regard. But she did in other aspects.

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The only difference is that I actually have scientific evidence, logic, philosophy, and theology on my side.

Do you? Then please explain the mechanism used by God to implement free will. Further, explain how God graded and calibrated the amount of free will given to the various thousands of animal species on the planet.

Quote: FrGamble

Please explain to me how teaching that people have freedom is another way to control people?!?

It's a concept related to sin. When you
sin, you supposedly insult god. And
god has given you this 'gift' called
free will that lets you actually decide
if you're going to insult him or not.

So if you buy into all of this, you're
in the perfect position to be controlled
by a higher moral authority than
yourself, namely the Church. You sin,
you sinned on purpose because god
gave you free will to do so, and where
do you go with this crushing guilt?

You go to the people who represent
god, of course. They've put themselves
in a position of power to help you out,
you need them to resolve your dilemma.
They set the whole thing up that way.
They invented sin, told you if you chose
to sin with your free will you would be
insulting god, and gave you no place
to go with the guilt except to them.

They're in control, you need them. And
they never let you forget it. Listen closely
to almost any sermon in any church.

Where do you go when you feel guilty for using your freedom to insult yourself or someone you love or care about?

Quote: FrGamble

Where do you go when you feel guilty for using your freedom to insult yourself or someone you love or care about?

If you insult yourself, you try to do better
next time. If it's someone else, you can go
to them and apologize. But with a god it's
much harder. You don't know if he's accepted
your apology. So Catholics go to confession
and god's representative tells you what to
do. It's a closed loop. They invent the crime,
invent the remedy, and administer the whole
operation. It's really quite ingenious, and
bothersome, at the same time.

Quote: Evenbob

If you insult yourself, you try to do better
next time. If it's someone else, you can go
to them and apologize. But with a god it's
much harder. You don't know if he's accepted
your apology. So Catholics go to confession
and god's representative tells you what to
do. It's a closed loop. They invent the crime,
invent the remedy, and administer the whole
operation. It's really quite ingenious, and
bothersome, at the same time.

A couple of things to point out here. Notice you did not deny that there are times when you don't live up to your own standards and you hurt others. This is sin, and everybody is in the same boat in how to deal with it. Your suggestions are very good. Since you don't believe in God and therefore don't understand how when you hurt yourself or others God is involved, it totally makes sense that you don't understand confession.

Another important point is that we obviously didn't invent the "crime" so to speak if you who are certainly outside of the influence of the Church feel badly when you insult yourself or others. We also didn't really invent the remedy, Jesus did. With or without the Church people feel guilty for their sins, some handle it in the way you aptly describe, others who see our mistakes in a more supernatural light either pray or go to confession.

The main point is that it is now clear that the Church did not invent the notion of sin or invent the desire to be freed from its effects.