Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

there are times when you don't live up to your own standards and you hurt others. This is sin,

No, it's personal growth. Try and do better
next time. Labeling it 'sin' is just a way to
control people, giving a group of religious
men authority over you. In those days
it was all about power over people with
ideas, today it's power over people with
money.

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The main point is that it is now clear that the Church did not invent the notion of sin or invent the desire to be freed from its effects.

Sin came from the time of Abraham. What difference
does it make, you're still using it is the point. Sin is
a sales trick, it creates a need. Same as the door to
door vacuum cleaner salesman who used to create
a need, then sell you the solution.

Quote: Evenbob

No, it's personal growth.

It is an opportunity for personal growth.

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Labeling it 'sin' is just a way to
control people,

You keep saying this over and over as if the more you repeat it the more it will magically change from false to true. Can you back up why you think labeling the fact that we fail and calling it 'sin' is a way to control people?

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Same as the door to
door vacuum cleaner salesman who used to create
a need, then sell you the solution.

A vacuum cleaner salesman didn't need to create a need, everybody needs a vacuum to suck away the dirty stuff in our lives. The same is true in regards to the Church. We did not create a need, people are all keenly aware that they are imperfect. What we offer is a way to get rid of that worry and to rejoice in being clean.

Quote: FrGamble

Can you back up why you think labeling the fact that calling it 'sin' is a way to control people? We did not create a need, people are all keenly aware that they are imperfect.

Sure. You can't prove sin exists, it's only
a concept. What would be the sole reason
to invent such a concept. To make some
people look bad, and others look good,
with the intent of the good people controlling
the bad ones. You think somebody just woke
up one day and 'noticed' they were offending
god? No, somebody had to dream it up as
a tool of control. That's why cultures like the
Hawaiians and Native Americans were so
unfamiliar with sin, they had no reason to want
to control people.

Quote: FrGamble

A vacuum cleaner salesman didn't need to create a need, everybody needs a vacuum to suck away the dirty stuff in our lives..

But they didn't. Most people in early days had
hardwood floors with a few rugs here and there.
Carpet was expensive and considered dirty to
have in a home. Selling vacuums was a hard sale
in the early days. You had to create the need to
make the sale.

I'm imperfect, that's what self improvement is for.
I don't need some outside force rubbing my nose
in it, claiming I'm offending some god he invented.

Quote: Evenbob

I'm imperfect, that's what self improvement is for.
I don't need some outside force rubbing my nose
in it, claiming I'm offending some god he invented.

Here we come down to it. You, me, all of us are imperfect. No one invented this truth, it is not a concept, or made up fantasy - it is a cold hard fact. We all have to deal with this aspect of our humanity. Christianity is doing the opposite of rubbing your nose in it. It is trying to remind you that while you are imperfect you are still loved. It is trying to remind you that your natural, or I should say supernatural, desire for self-improvement will be fulfilled one day. It is trying to stop you from feeling or being overcome by any guilt or shame by teaching about the power of forgiveness.

Quote: FrGamble

Here we come down to it. You, me, all of us are imperfect. No one invented this truth, it is not a concept,

Certainly it's a concept. A baby is born
perfect unto himself in every way. It's
his fellow humans that teach him he's
not perfect. God has nothing to do with
it.

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It is trying to stop you from feeling or being overcome by any guilt or shame .

If you're overcome by guilt and shame
from daily living, you need a shrink, not
a confessional. I can't think of anything
I feel guilty about, or shameful. Thank
a pagan god I wasn't taught self abuse
was a sin as a teen, I'd be going to hell
ten times over. When you don't believe
sin exists, there is little to feel guilty about
if you lead a moral life.

Quote: Evenbob

Certainly it's a concept. A baby is born
perfect unto himself in every way. It's
his fellow humans that teach him he's
not perfect. God has nothing to do with
it.

So a human being left to him or herself would not think of themselves as imperfect based on their own experiences? They would not have moments when they did what they wish they wouldn't or didn't do something they wish they would've?

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When you don't believe
sin exists, there is little to feel guilty about
if you lead a moral life.

Little to move you to self-improvement as well.

Quote: FrGamble

So a human being left to him or herself would not think of themselves as imperfect based on their own experiences? They would not have moments when they did what they wish they wouldn't or didn't do something they wish they would've?

Look at the pre missionary Hawaiians.

"The ancient Hawaiians were a remarkably varied people in their enthusiastic expression of all human sexual impulses. In the ancient Hawaiian culture it was not at all extraordinary for a boy to be brought up as a girl, or for a young man to lead an active life in the open as a female, dressing like and appearing as a woman, performing female tasks and duties, and adopting a woman’s daily role in everyday Hawaiian life. The Hawaiians were themselves quite remarkable in that they understood the dual nature of human beings to be comprised of both masculine and feminine traits, almost the same view reflected by modern Western psychologists in affirmation of the role male and female hormones play in dictating integrated psychosocial behavior."

They were completely naked most of the
time, with zero shame about it or the
lifestyles they had. It took the Church to
set them straight about what sinners they
were. They went from being a happy carefree
society, to being just as miserable as the
missionaries 'teaching' them. It eventually
led to Hawaiians being extremely prejudiced
against Gays and others in the GBLT
community. God's minions at work again,
spreading joy wherever they went.




Little to move you to self-improvement as well.

So you think the ancient Hawaiians thought they were perfect? Do you think they were never puzzled by their weakness or temptation? Do you think they never felt shame or guilt because of their mistakes? I'm no expert but I bet they had some type of ceremony, ritual, or religion that they turned to in order to allow themselves to be forgiven and enjoy that happy carefree life.

Quote: FrGamble

So you think the ancient Hawaiians thought they were perfect?

Oh man, you're really hung up on this
ridiculous 'perfect' thing. It's another
meaningless word. Perfection doesn't
exist, it's an opinion, an abstract idea.
One persons perfection is anothers
idea of yuck and boredom.

My wife thinks the perfect meal is fried
chicken, mashed potatoes with the skins
on and real butter, and creamed corn
on the side. Ick. A perfect weekend to
my brother is a fridge full of beer, his
recliner, and non stop sports on TV for
two days. And ordering takeout. I hate
almost all of that.

You say god and Jesus are perfect. It's
not a fact, it's a hope and opinion. You
can call them anything you want, they
aren't here to be proven wrong.

"Perfection does not exist and is a creation of our minds.
It is a concept and not an attribute of reality.
Perfection exists as an abstraction."

Quote: Evenbob

"Perfection does not exist and is a creation of our minds.
It is a concept and not an attribute of reality.
Perfection exists as an abstraction."

If perfection did not exist it could not be a creation of our minds. For example you can't think of the color noshfiyskghf, because I just made that word up. You have no conception of it because it doesn't exist. However, we can think of perfection, and we even desire it, even though none of us have ever experienced it. Why is that? Because it is ingrained in us that we were made for perfection. This is the other side of the coin of Original Sin. We are flawed now, but we were made to be perfect - we long for it like a long lost home or echo in our nature.