Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Bob sometimes you stumble upon something quite profound. God gives us a house to roam in but tells us what rooms we shouldn't enter. We are free to go in those rooms, but there are consequences. Our free will isn't impinged or restricted, we are free to go against the rules but we may quickly find our there were reasons why we shouldn't go into those rooms.

What I think you and Ace are struggling with is the scary fact that you are exactly right. God gives you this gift of free will, but it is not yours by right. You didn't earn it or deserve it, you didn't create yourself and yet here you are a thinking living human being with amazing freedom and a set of rules to follow. You can abuse your freedom, break those rules all you want or you can use your freedom as God intends. Ultimately though we all know the gift of our freedom really turns out to be a loan. It will be returned and their is nothing you or I can do about it. What will we say when asked to give an account to how we used our freedom is an important question to think about?

Padre, once again you take something I say and completely miss my point. I am not saying God gave us free will, as there is no God. I was merely asking a hypothetical question about a hypothetical God in an effort to show you that your thinking is skewed.

I find it strange that you talk hypothetically about God, as there is a God. No matter, simply view my answer as a hypothetical answer to your hypothetical question.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob sometimes you stumble upon something quite profound. God gives us a house to roam in but tells us what rooms we shouldn't enter.

That is NOT free will, that's a game. It's the
free will game. In fact, we don't have 'free will'
at all. We're here because we're here, do with
it as you will. Saying there's free will implies
there's something that regulates it, when there
isn't.

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What I think you and Ace are struggling with

I'm not struggling with a thing, sorry if I gave that
impression. You play the religion game, I don't
have to play it because it doesn't apply to me. You
think it applies to you, so you have no choice.

Quote: FrGamble

as there is a God.

Opinion, your honor. Strike it from the record.

Quote: FrGamble

Therin lies the rub. I'm afraid then that you are doomed to the failures of a subjective, modern, relativistic secular morality [..]

Really, dear sir? I like t think we've gotten to know each other a bit. Do I strike you as someone given over to subjectivism and relativism? I will admit to being rabidly secular, but that kind of goes along with the atheist part.

If not, then ask yourself why do you assume so as a fallback position. Recall what I've said about false alternatives. Finally recall what Aristotle said about contradictions.

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There should be some sense of awe in recognizing that the chaotic process you describe gives rise to a moral system

Not really. It's the line of least resistance, after all. That's what conventional wisdom really is, or institutional memory, or cultural biases. I admire deep thinkers who purposefully devise a system, even when their conclusions are wrong.

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[..]that has brought the recognition of the dignity of every human person [..]

For a philosophical system you claim has done all that, it's amazing how quick many Christians are to do the very opposite when faced with people they don't like. Naturally you can dismiss them as not being "real" Christians. But they read the same scriptures and have the same basic beliefs.

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Your alternative non-divine morality is summed up by Evenbob:

I can assure you there is nothing concerning me which can be summed up by the person you mention.

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The two points are not mutually exclusive when you reflect upon a God who loves us enough to give us free will.

The free will excuse wears thin after a while.

See, why would God make people capable of committing atrocities on a massive scale? Free will does not explain that. There are a lot of things humans cannot do, no matter how hard they will it.

Maybe the warranty expired? ;)

Quote: FrGamble

I find it strange that you talk hypothetically about God, as there is a God.

I think lapsed Trekkies sometimes take up religion when they grow up ;)

Quote: Nareed

Really, dear sir? I like t think we've gotten to know each other a bit. Do I strike you as someone given over to subjectivism and relativism? I will admit to being rabidly secular, but that kind of goes along with the atheist part.

If not, then ask yourself why do you assume so as a fallback position. Recall what I've said about false alternatives. Finally recall what Aristotle said about contradictions.

I truly like you more and more as we go back and forth, so please know I mean no disrespect. Unfortunately I still hold that when you remove God morality will eventually slide into each of us trying to nail jello to the wall. There are no alternatives that don't succumb to subjectivism or relativism. There is no more ground we can all stand on; no foundation big enough to support the weight of a solid moral system that is objective without God.

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The free will excuse wears thin after a while.

See, why would God make people capable of committing atrocities on a massive scale? Free will does not explain that. There are a lot of things humans cannot do, no matter how hard they will it.

Maybe the warranty expired? ;)

We can also commit loving miracles and amazingly kind works on a massive scale? The possibility for this and its opposite are both explained through free will.

If you use it for purposes it was not designed for the warranty is void.
But don't worry it is fixed by dumping it in water three times.

Quote: FrGamble

I truly like you more and more as we go back and forth, so please know I mean no disrespect.

Not personally. I believe that.

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Unfortunately I still hold that when you remove God morality will eventually slide into each of us trying to nail jello to the wall.

Funny, but that's what religious moralities do.

It's interesting to note not many religions in ancient times concerned themselves with an afterlife. Those that did, imagined some deity specifically for that role. One that did, the Egyptian religion, also imposed some form of morality associated with it.

However, the Egyptian conception of the afterlife can be summed up as "like this life, only better." Perhaps because Egypt, back then, enjoyed a higher living standard than most other societies of the time. Therefore the moral code concerned itself with this world, since it was much like the next.

Christianity holds a very different view. The world to come is nothing like this one. Its moral code has little, if anything, to do with this world. Its standard of value is definitely not tied to this world. Christianity is not a moral guide on how to live on Earth, but on how to gain entrance to Heaven. And mostly this is done through sacrifice and abnegation.

Well, no God, no Heaven, no Hell, not even Purgatory, so there is no point to the whole enterprise. That's nailing Jell-O to the wall and expecting it to stick.

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We can also commit loving miracles and amazingly kind works on a massive scale? The possibility for this and its opposite are both explained through free will.

No, they're not. Not if an all-loving deity lovingly created its children so they could, potentially, hurt each other.

I could buy it from a disinterested deity. Say one content to see how the universe develops. Inevitably sentient beings will have all sorts of capabilities not deliberately designed, including the ability to harm each other in any way imaginable. I definitely would buy the ide of no deity at all, and things simply work out as they do for any number of causes.

Quote: FrGamble

If you use it for purposes it was not designed for the warranty is void.
But don't worry it is fixed by dumping it in water three times.

The Church has a 'fix' for everything, you
can be forgiven and get out of what you've
done, just like it was a Parker Bros board
game. People play this game their whole
lives, it seems to entertain them. As long
as the Church is no longer hurting anybody,
who cares.

Quote: Nareed

Christianity holds a very different view. The world to come is nothing like this one. Its moral code has little, if anything, to do with this world. Its standard of value is definitely not tied to this world. Christianity is not a moral guide on how to live on Earth, but on how to gain entrance to Heaven. And mostly this is done through sacrifice and abnegation.

Maybe I would say that Christianity is a guide for living on Earth like we were already in Heaven. It is about trying to usher in God's Kingdom to the here and now. "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven."

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No, they're not. Not if an all-loving deity lovingly created its children so they could, potentially, hurt each other.

Can you imagine any other way in which we can have the capacity for true love and great kindness without having the potential to also have pure hate and awful selfishness? Wouldn't any restrictions or governors on our freedom to sin diminish our free choice to radically love each other?