Original Sin?

Whoa there horsey, there is nothing sinful about sexual intercourse! It is a great gift that expresses unconditional love, unbunbreakable commitment, and the divine possibility of creating a new life - plus it's enjoyable!

Quote: FrGamble

You know sometimes I wonder why it is that I do enjoy coming here to debate these things with you

It's the Internet equivalent of a hair shirt. He's just breaking your gonads.

Quote: FrGamble

Contraception wasn't around yet.

Onanism was practiced and people used IIRC a sheep's intestine as a condom. No pictures, please :-)

Quote: FrGamble

we want to be in charge, we want to set the rules, we want...we want... it all leads to our unhappiness

You must be describing the last 1500
years of the Church. I'm not going to
dwell on this, but the abuse of children
by priests must be mentioned.

Pedophilia was not a crime before the
20th century. What went on behind
closed doors in the Church was unknown.
It wasn't until well into the 20th century
that the extent of it came to light and
how much effort had gone into covering
it up.

You can't look at the scope of it worldwide,
it's breathtakingly huge. This is just one
sentence from an article about one country.

"In the Republic of Ireland, starting in the 1990s, a series of criminal cases and Irish government enquiries established that hundreds of priests had abused thousands of children in previous decades."

For the history of the Church, it's been a safe
haven for pedophiles, even though homosexuality
is a major sin to them. I'm not even going to make
a big deal out of it, I always just assumed it was
going on. When I was young an older Gay man
told me if you want find Gays, look at organizations
that are exclusively male. The military, the YMCA,
police depts, the Catholic clergy. He himself was
abused by a priest as a kid and that's when he learned
he was Gay.

My feeling is this is what's killing the Church. Not only
are the Gay men staying out of the priesthood now,
other men are afraid to join because it's become so
tainted. I don't hold it against the Church for being
hypocrites, as an atheist I expect this kind of behavior
from Christians, they aren't any different than anybody
else. They just think they are.

Quote: FrGamble

They fall for the idea that you or I can become God and become the arbiter of what is right and wrong based on my own feelings or thoughts, without taking into consideration others.

The old false alternative: God's arbitrary rules, or pure subjectivism.

I say "false" because as there is no God, then there is no difference between Christian, or any religious morality, and subjectivism. it's all arbitrary, except one claims divine provenance. But also because there are lots of alternatives to subjectivism.

Quote:

One cannot emphasize enough the "badness" of the original sin of Adam and Eve. Every murder, rape, theft, etc. begins with the idea that I am more important than another, including God.

As far as my life is concerned, I am more important to myself than anyone else(*), including in particular God. Yet I've never raped, robbed, murdered, or even beat up anyone. I must be doing something wrong, or maybe I haven't been paying attention.


(*) I can conceive of circumstances in which another person's life could matter more to me than my own. A spouse or a child, for example. But being single and childless, this doesn't apply as yet.

I want to make it clear, too, that I don't claim other people don't matter or are irrelevant or unimportant. Not at all. Not valuing others as much as I value myself does not mean I don't value anyone else. Quite the contrary.

Quote: Evenbob

...they aren't any different than anybody
else. They just think they are.

I'm taking this out of context, and I'm going to keep it.

Thanks =)

Quote: Nareed

The old false alternative: God's arbitrary rules, or pure subjectivism.

I say "false" because as there is no God, then there is no difference between Christian, or any religious morality, and subjectivism. it's all arbitrary, except one claims divine provenance. But also because there are lots of alternatives to subjectivism.

Brilliant point. I guess I never really thought about it in those terms but Christian morality, while objective to us, is indeed subjective to God. However, God's desire is only for our lasting and true happiness. His desire is always other focused and altruistic therefore God's laws are uniquely objective even in their subjectivity.

Quote:

As far as my life is concerned, I am more important to myself than anyone else(*), including in particular God. Yet I've never raped, robbed, murdered, or even beat up anyone. I must be doing something wrong, or maybe I haven't been paying attention.


(*) I can conceive of circumstances in which another person's life could matter more to me than my own. A spouse or a child, for example. But being single and childless, this doesn't apply as yet.

I want to make it clear, too, that I don't claim other people don't matter or are irrelevant or unimportant. Not at all. Not valuing others as much as I value myself does not mean I don't value anyone else. Quite the contrary.

Original sin only means our moral compass is broken, it is not destroyed. You are doing things right because we are all made in the image and likeness of God. This is why we also do need to very highly value ourselves. If we don't recognize our God given greatness then we either never see the goodness in others or throw our lives away as a sad and false martyr. One of the radical teachings of Christ is to eventually see all people not just our spouses or children, even our enemies, as having the same dignity and worth in God's eyes and in our own as ourselves.

Quote: FrGamble

Original sin only means our moral compass is broken, it is not destroyed. You are doing things right because we are all made in the image and likeness of God. This is why we also do need to very highly value ourselves. If we don't recognize our God given greatness then we either never see the goodness in others or throw our lives away as a sad and false martyr. One of the radical teachings of Christ is to eventually see all people not just our spouses or children, even our enemies, as having the same dignity and worth in God's eyes and in our own as ourselves.

All those words when all you need to
say is, to be happy you need high self
esteem. God has nothing do with any
it.

Quote: FrGamble

You are doing things right because we are all made in the image and likeness of God.

Padre, my interpretation is that "God" made Adam in his image, then fashioned Eve from Adam's "side" or "rib". Does this not make it incestuous for Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply?
Of course, your argument will be that that portion of the Bible is selectively "mythical"


I am getting annoyed already —— Bob or Nareed, you're up!

Quote: aceofspades

Padre, my interpretation is that "God" made Adam in his image, then fashioned Eve from Adam's "side" or "rib". Does this not make it incestuous for Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply?
!

They would have the same DNA, their kids
would be morons. Tell that to a fundmentalist
and he'll say god fixed it somehow. That's
their answer to everything.