Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

but for us who believe our faith is grounded in the past but live vibrantly in our lives today.

All religious people say that, even the
ones who worship Satan or carved rocks.
It's a state of mind they talk themselves
into. Ever see a real believer lose his
faith? It goes away like throwing a light
switch because there's nothing there to
begin with. Believing in god is like proving
a negative. There is no proof, so you constantly
talk yourself into it. Like having a losing
gambling system, it takes some people a
long time to realize it never was a winner,
they just wanted it to be and that clouded
their judgement.

There's good evidence El was the original
god, just from the name Isra-el. But the
most practical and popular always wins out
eventually.

Ok good at least you are no longer thinking that YHWH is a hodgepodge of all the pagan gods lumped together. Your next problem is reconciling that in no way was YHWH the most practical or most popular. In fact throughout the history of the Jewish people the worship of pagan gods died hard and took forever, hence the commandments you referenced earlier. In spite of YHWH's unpopularity and downright revolutionary and threatening stance to the whole of pagan culture it remained. It never really wins out by the way until the coming of Christ.

I think your analogy is apt. When a believer loses his/her faith it is like a light goes off. Have you ever seen a non-believer convert? It is like a throwing a light switch on! When they come out of the darkness they see the world in a whole new amazing way. They realize there is hope and life is not a losing game with no chance of winning. They encounter more and more proof from existence, scientific discoveries, philosophy, logic, theology, anthropology, and from their own experiences that there is a God who forgives them and loves them forever.

Quote: FrGamble

Ok good at least you are no longer thinking that YHWH is a hodgepodge of all the pagan gods lumped together. .

I never said that and you know it. I said
he was weeded out from the others for
practical reasons and chosen to be the
head god. The early councils voted on it
and he won.

And conversions are famous for their failure
rate. A religious conversion is no different
than 6 weeks in rehab. They come out of there
all gung ho for their new life and fresh
awakening as a clean person. Failure rates
are about 90%. It's the same with the 'light
bulb' religious conversions, only about 10%
are still with it 2 years later. Ask church members
and you'll find 90% were born into it, 5% were
converted by marriage, and few of them converted
by getting knocked off their donkey like Paul.

Most of your time is spent preaching to the choir,
that's why you like to come here.

Quote: Evenbob

I never said that and you know it. I said
he was weeded out from the others for
practical reasons and chosen to be the
head god. The early councils voted on it
and he won.

Quote: Evenbob

Putting all the gods
under one name was inevitable if the
people were to get along,

Quote: Evenbob

They gathered a bunch of gods under one name, Yahweh,

Hey man no need to deny it, I'm just glad you're not saying the last two things anymore. The next problem you have is trying to explain the councils of which you speak. Surely you aren't talking about the early Church councils as they had nothing to do with the worship of YHWH, which has never really been in doubt for Christians ever since our elder brothers and sisters in the faith (namely the Jews) settled that matter long ago.

By the way am I to assume you agree with me on all the points you don't seem to respond to?

Quote:

Most of your time is spent preaching to the choir,
that's why you like to come here.

You know sometimes I wonder why it is that I do enjoy coming here to debate these things with you, it never seems to go anywhere. Where is Nareed and sd2baker and all the other contributors? Can't you see that Evenbob and I are kind of in a rut. If it wasn't for Ace and Petro on occasion some of these threads are just Bob and I like passing each other on a dark night.

You know what I meant. Two days ago all of this
was new to you, now you're the expert on it.
You said I was full of it and none of it was true.

Point is, there was a bunch of gods and the
smart Jews picked one to be the main one.
They saw something big in the one god idea.
They picked the god, the god didn't pick
them, BTW.

Quote: FrGamble

Where is Nareed and sd2baker and all the other contributors?

I'm consumed with a few tons of the pointless work I do.

Quote: FrGamble

I too wish there were not consequences, especially painful ones, to our actions -

No, that won't fly.

See, if you fall and hurt yourself, that's an unfortunate consequence of the existence of gravity and the way you're body is put together. You can't jump off a ten meter height into hard pavement and expect to come out uninjured. The impersonal forces at play guarantee it.

But if I disobey a rule, whether arbitrary or not, and get a disproportionate punishment as a result, that's more than mere natural consequences of an action. That's an imposition by a conscious party of its will over another.

To be sure that's what we do when we set up laws, and the coercive actions to enforce them. And that's why laws with punishments should 1) be reasonable, 2) carry proportionate punishment and/or retribution, and 3) should be confined only to actions that violate the rights of other people (ie, doing drugs, however self-destructive, should not be a crime).

God fails on all counts. What did Eve and Adam do that was so bad, they and all their billions of descendants should suffer the "consequences" for ever?

The story of Adam and Eve teaches us that what they did was the root and foundation for all other sin. They fall for the idea that you or I can become God and become the arbiter of what is right and wrong based on my own feelings or thoughts, without taking into consideration others. It is not recognizing that I am a created being who is part of a community that thrives and exists through loving service and concern and is destroyed by greed, selfishness, and pride. This type of mentality fills us with unhappiness and hurts everyone. It tears at the fabric of society. Thank God Jesus has shown us the opposite of the sin of Adam and gives to us a way out of this mindset. One cannot emphasize enough the "badness" of the original sin of Adam and Eve. Every murder, rape, theft, etc. begins with the idea that I am more important than another, including God. Therefore the consequences present in the story of Adam and Eve are also extreme. We all suffer from the temptation of this mentality still today; we want to be in charge, we want to set the rules, we want...we want... it all leads to our unhappiness, the inequality in the world, and the breakdown of families. Yeah it is bad and so is the punishment but it is not disproportionate. The only thing disproportionate is the mercy and love of God.

Quote: Evenbob

You know what I meant. Two days ago all of this
was new to you, now you're the expert on it.
You said I was full of it and none of it was true.

Point is, there was a bunch of gods and the
smart Jews picked one to be the main one.
They saw something big in the one god idea.
They picked the god, the god didn't pick
them, BTW.

What was new to me was the pre-history of YHWH before Abraham and Moses and I thank you for pointing it out to me. It is interesting to see God preparing us for the revelation of who He is long before His covenants are established with the Patriarchs.

Of course God picked them. Why else would they move from the culturally accepted practice of polytheism to the heretical, unpopular, illegal, unpatriotic, and punishable by death idea of monotheism? Moses had an experience with the one, living, and true God who revealed His name and entered into a relationship with an oppressed and enslaved people. God chose Moses and the chosen people and history has never been the same since.

Quote: Pacomartin

"Mary is conceived in sin just like us."

Don't people understand that it is simply an arrogant power grab for a religion to declare sexual intercourse as sinful?