Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

I don't know everything (though I see how you could get that impression).



So if god has existed forever.... Well.

I can answer both you and rxwine together on this one. This is one of the many reasons why you can't have non-contingent material things that are eternal. It's because the physics and the logic won't work. You need something outside of the universe, something all-powerful, something outside of time, matter, and energy so you can still have laws, history, and logic. You'll fail every time if you try to explain the existence of the material universe by claiming it is eternal.

Quote: FrGamble

You need something outside of the universe.

Even if true, all you need is one extra property. Hardly a god.

You're the guy who says that we need a dealer, casino rule book and the whole shebang, to produce a specific number of 5 units from 52 units.

You could do that, but all you need is something distributing random objects until you get a specific organization. And in fact, the Universe looks just like that. Earth is one of the Royal flushes out of bunch of lifeless objects.

Quote: FrGamble

You need something outside of the universe, something all-powerful, something outside of time, matter, and energy so you can still have laws, history, and logic.

I won't tell you what you need, though I do savor the irony.

Instead I'll quote Asimov again, "Entropy always increases in an expanding universe."

In short, we don't know what laws of physics are an integral part of the universe and which are emergent properties of it (does a boson exist to mediate the strong force, or does the strong force exist because the boson does?). Although Quantum mechanics is over a century old, in many ways we're beginners on the subject. Asking about the ultimate aspects of the universe now is like asking Hertz, or some other early pioneer, about the fine points of Bluetooth data connectivity and encryption between iOS and Android phones. Except we know a bit more about formulating the question.

I won't pretend to know much about quantam mechanics and such but we have had a pretty good idea of what or who had to create the universe since at least Aristotle. He knew usuing logic that the entity had to be outside of the universe for the reasons we have discussed and have the attributes we have already discussed as well. I have no doubt that good science will continue to learn more about the universe at its beginning, that is an exciting and curious time and I can't wait for the discoveries. However, how it began and why is not the purview of science. Philosophers have that coverd and have for quite some time.

Quote: rxwine

Even if true, all you need is one extra property. Hardly a god.

You're the guy who says that we need a dealer, casino rule book and the whole shebang, to produce a specific number of 5 units from 52 units.

You could do that, but all you need is something distributing random objects until you get a specific organization. And in fact, the Universe looks just like that. Earth is one of the Royal flushes out of bunch of lifeless objects.

Cool analogy but the odds of something like Earth and life as we know it existing is about 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (and many more zeros) times more unlikely than a Royal Flush.

Quote: FrGamble

Cool analogy but the odds of something like Earth and life as we know it existing is about .

Not really calculable. We don't know how large
the universe is. It's obviously possible because
here we are.

Quote: FrGamble

Cool analogy but the odds of something like Earth and life as we know it existing is about 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (and many more zeros) times more unlikely than a Royal Flush.

At least when you know something can happen no matter how remote, you're better off than suggesting something that has never been shown to happen at all.

Like a provable god existing. Still haven't produced one.

Or at least I can delineate a process -- with god you have no process. Just a mysterious being.

Quote: FrGamble

Cool analogy but the odds of something like Earth and life as we know it existing is about

Actually, many prominent scientists say that it's a complete certainty that there are millions of planets at least theoretically capable of supporting life. That life doesn't have to even remotely resemble that found on Earth, of course. For that matter, several bodies in our solar system--Mars and Europa among them--have the composition and chemistry to support life.

Moreover, there are several what Star Trek used to call "Class M" planets within detectable range of us. The better we're able to scan the universe, the more and more likely it seems that there is life somewhere out there. And there's nothing to suggest that evolution and the development of sentience and intelligence should be confined to Earth.

Quote: rxwine

At least when you know something can happen no matter how remote, you're better off than suggesting something that has never been shown to happen at all.

Like a provable god existing. Still haven't produced one.

Or at least I can delineate a process -- with god you have no process. Just a mysterious being.

We don't know that the odds of life spontaneously generating are greater than zero. The fact that we are here asking the question proves nothing.

Quote: pew

We don't know that the odds of life spontaneously generating are greater than zero. The fact that we are here asking the question proves nothing.

Actually, "spontaneously generating" isn't how life came about on this planet. The chemical and electrical processes that create life are well understood, as are the conditions in which they have to operate for that to occur. In its simplest definition, life is a series of self-sustaining chemical and electrochemical reactions.

Where theology differs from science is that the former confuses the unusual with the miraculous.