Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

I've never personally known anybody that
seriously questioned their faith.

And then pretel how are you so certain that no one or the vast majority have not as well?

Quote:

But not statements like, "I've been thinking
and have realized Jesus wasn't god, or a
savior, and that I've been hoodwinked."

Are you asking a question or making a resolution here. The question of Christ's divinity is a welcome one and one that the Church and its faithful have asked theologically and more importantly personally since the beginning. You comment of realizing He is not is not a question at all and it sounds like you have made up your mind. And this after a year of trying to be a Christian as you have said and with perhaps not the greatest background or examples in your life, as evidence from you statement above and your previous posts. It seems that you are the one unwilling to question your beliefs.

Quote: FrGamble

The question of Christ's divinity is a welcome one.. Your comment of realizing He is not is not a question at all .

There is no god, how can anybody be divine.
You assume the major premise is true, that there
is a god, then build your sand castles around
your faulty premise.

Life can be interesting and fun when
you do that, look at all the personal power
it gives you and your Church. Just realize
there are those not willing to play the game,
we need more than magically turning myth
into reality.

Quote: FrGamble

So you think myself and millions of people, including some of the smartest men and women ever to live are just lazy and don't question their faith. Is that what you are saying?

I certainly would say that. Being smart does not preclude being lazy. And some of the smartest men and women ever to live are/have been atheists. (And no, I'm not going to give you examples and then debate them with you, because you'd just say that not being believers made them ipso facto stupid.)

I think that what Bob was saying, though, was more along the lines of such people being subject to early childhood conditioning so that questioning their faith/indoctrination would be a major effort (and probably traumatic, even deeply so, for many).

Just for grins, though--all religions tout "faith" as a virtue. Faith, as in NOT questioning what you are told, NOT seeking confirming evidence, and NOT being skeptical. Check your friendly neighborhood Bible. Who was held up and ridiculed as an example of errant thought? "Doubting Thomas," who dared to question the assertion that a man walking around in front of him was the same man he'd just seen brutally executed three days earlier.

Faith is actually NOT a virtue. Humans are fortunate to have minds capable of deep analysis, and to accept a proposition on "faith"--a religious proposition or any other--is to abuse one's own mind.

Quote: stinkingliberal

Faith is actually NOT a virtue. .

Indeed not. Faith is something you turn to
in desperation, when your quiver is empty.
When all your choices are gone, you rely
on faith to pull you through. It's all Xtions
ever have, faith. They have no evidence,
no proof, all they have is lots of others
who believe as they do. In other words,
they have nothing at all except others of a
like mind.

Quote: Evenbob

There is no god, how can anybody be divine.
You assume the major premise is true,

The fact that you are the only one actually doing this and are charging me with doing it astounds me and leaves me speechless. If there is ever an assumption it is that there is no god. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to support such a ridiculous claim. Yet you assume it is true with unshakable faith - apparently I should admire you, if I did actually admire blind faith in something.

Quote: stinkingliberal

Just for grins, though--all religions tout "faith" as a virtue. Faith, as in NOT questioning what you are told, NOT seeking confirming evidence, and NOT being skeptical. Check your friendly neighborhood Bible. Who was held up and ridiculed as an example of errant thought? "Doubting Thomas," who dared to question the assertion that a man walking around in front of him was the same man he'd just seen brutally executed three days earlier.

You have absolutely no idea what faith is! What you are talking about above needs a adjective before it such as "blind" or "stupid" or "unreasonable" - it has no similarity at all to the faith of St. Thomas for example.

Doubting and questioning are important for anyone to grow in their faith because it is often the best way to discover reasons and evidence that support your faith. If you didn't question the assertion that the man you saw crucified by the Romans was now alive you would have some issues. All the Apostles and disciples marvel at this idea. St. Peter and John run to the tomb to see if it is true. They are all huddled together in the Upper Room scared until He appears to them and then this small group of people literally change the course of human history.

Quote:

Faith is actually NOT a virtue. Humans are fortunate to have minds capable of deep analysis, and to accept a proposition on "faith"--a religious proposition or any other--is to abuse one's own mind.

OMG!!! Faith is actually the most important virtue there is. Faith is analysis of existing evidence and coming to a reasonable conclusion based on that information. What you need to get past is the awful view you have of faith. It is not just a jump in the dark; that is dangerous. You and I both live by faith every moment of every day. You have a collection of evidence and experience that leads you to make the decision based on faith that the coffee or tea you are drinking is safe. You have no proof, you did not do a chemical analysis of it before you drank it, you acted on faith. As you will do whenever you meet anyone new today, stop at a stoplight, or trust your loved one. Faith is how human beings live and move and have our being. It is an abuse of one's mind to even suggest there is any other way to live. We are not robots, we are human beings, and human beings live on faith.

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that you are the only one actually doing this and are charging me with doing it astounds me.

Doing what, saying there is no god?
You have no evidence of a god,
assume there is one, and build your
fantasy world around an unproven
assumption. That's why atheists are
so far away from your world, we take
none of it for granted. When you call
something divine, we snicker. When
you talk about doing gods will, we
guffaw. You always do your own will,
and blame it on god.

God is your Catch 22, or I should say
your Catch-all 22. He the ready made
excuse to blame everything in your
life on, so you never have to take
personal responsibility.

Quote: FrGamble

OMG!!! Faith is actually the most important virtue there is.

As I said, faith is NOT a virtue, it's
desperation. Does a general have
faith going into battle? He better
have a plan and the men to enact
the plan, or he's screwed. Faith
will get him diddly.

Do you use faith to get a good high
paying job? You better be trained and
educated for the job, because faith
will get you welfare and that's about
it.

Faith is not a virtue. Faith is when you're
shivering in the dark and have run out
of money and friends. It's when you're
desperate. We try and run our lives so
we never need faith, because faith is
just wishful thinking and we all know the
value of that.

Quote: Evenbob

Doing what, saying there is no god?

No, assuming your major premise is true without a shred of evidence.

Quote: Evenbob

As I said, faith is NOT a virtue, it's
desperation. Does a general have
faith going into battle? He better
have a plan and the men to enact
the plan, or he's screwed. Faith
will get him diddly.

The fact that you think faith means that someone just wings it without a plan or any preparation makes it all the more clear that you do not understand what faith means to a religious person. We really need to define terms. Faith is a virtue of the human reason to reach conclusions based on the analysis of converging evidence, facts, revelation, and experience. There is a leap in regards to faith, but it is not done in the dark. If a general doesn't have faith that his soldiers will do what he has planned and instructed them to do then he is really screwed. He has no proof or certainty that they will not all desert the camp or run away when the fighting begins. He has faith in them, in fact it is the most important thing he has - everything else depends upon it. No matter how meticulous his plans the general will have nothing without faith.

Quote:

Faith is not a virtue.

I don't think you know what I mean by virtue either.