Original Sin?

Quote: petroglyph

They do the same when I ask them why they worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

I think for a long time they rested on
the Sabbath, and celebrated 'lords day'
on Sunday. As time went on they gave
up on Saturday, they couldn't get much
done taking two days a week off.

Quote: Evenbob

You go back to it again and again
and again, in various ways. All Xtions
do. They think it's a solid piece of
evidence. How could all those millions
of people been wrong for so many
centuries.

When I point out they thought earth
was the center of the universe for far
longer, or that witches caused their
crops to fail, a good Xtion will just
wave that away, like it's a pesky fly
buzzing them. No, Jesus is for real,
this many people aren't wrong.

Till they are, of course.

It most certainly is a solid piece of evidence, you would be a fool to disagree. However, you would be just as foolish as to think it is the only piece of evidence you need. You need facts to back you up no matter how many people believe. This is what lead to so many believing the earth was flat, they had facts and evidence that seemed to support it. Once new information and facts became available people stopped believing the earth was flat. Do you think that all the people who today who think the Earth is round could be wrong? Of course not. You seem to think that people are lead to believe something that is not true just because everyone else is. People believe in things with great number because the evidence and facts support it - like it used to in regards to the shape of the Earth. The facts and evidence continue to lead people to believe in Jesus Christ because He is God and has saved us from our sins. This is why there has always been so relatively few atheists. The facts and evidence just don't support the belief that there is no God.

If it would help you, perhaps you should focus on the impact the person of Jesus Christ has had on human history rather than the sheer nuumber of those who beileve in Him. That way you won't be distracted by thinking it is only the numbers we are talking about and not the reason, experiences, and evidence that lead to those staggering numbers.

Quote: FrGamble

It most certainly is a solid piece of evidence.

It's only evidence that people will
believe anything if enough other
people believe it's true. It will never
be proven wrong, just like unicorns
will never be proven not to have
ever existed.

Xtionity will eventually go out of
favor, it's doing so now in EU. It
will never go away completely, it
will be a quaint reminder of the
past with only zealots practicing
it. The heyday of Christianity was
around the time of the Reformation.

The Vatican had become so bloated
with it's own self importance that
a schism was inevitable. It's been all
downhill since.

Quote: Evenbob

It's only evidence that people will
believe anything if enough other
people believe it's true. It will never
be proven wrong,

Didn't you just give the example of things like the Earth being flat proven to be wrong and so people changed their mind? You're mistake is that you think people back then believed the earth was flat because everyone else was and for no other reason. You don't seem to grasp that the available evidence at the time led to that conclusion, by the way people figured out the earth was round a really, really long time ago so a better analogy for us to use would be the earth being the center of the universe. Anyway, the point is your mind is crippled by prejeduice and you can't imagine so many people believing something that you don't think is true. You attribute it all to gullibility or groupthink, when that is never the case when we are talking about numbers so large. You have to have facts, evidence, and experiences that support such beliefs or they will quickly collapse. Christinaity continues to be strong around the world and growing in many places. You did get something correct though in the first part of your post - it will never be proven wrong. Why? Because it is true.

Quote:

The heyday of Christianity was
around the time of the Reformation.

Only you my friend could be so totally wrong. I couldn't possibly think of a worse time in Christianity's history. Sometimes I think you try very hard to be so wrong, almost for effect I think.

Quote:

The Vatican had become so bloated
with it's own self importance

Yeah, this is what I think of when I think of Pope Francis. Come on man, give it a break.

Quote: FrGamble

Didn't you just give the example of things like the Earth being flat proven to be wrong and so people changed their mind?

And that's why Xtionity (or Mormonism or
Scientology) will never be proven wrong.
They aren't based on anything real, they
can't be proven right or wrong. That's the
whole point of organized religion. You pick
a theology that has the consistency of
Jello, so it can never be nailed down. It will
stand the scrutiny of time forever because
there in nothing there to prove or refute.

And just before the Reformation WAS the
heyday of the Church. There was one brand
of the religion, Catholicism. Now there are
2500 brands and growing. The religion is
powerless and without teeth, and is fading
fast in many parts of the world.

Quote: Evenbob

And that's why Xtionity (or Mormonism or
Scientology) will never be proven wrong.

Christianity unlike the other religions you mentioned has not been proven wrong. Mormonism is clearly wrong on many things, for example the Albino tribe of native americans whom Jesus preached to, the location of the Garden of Eden, etc., etc. Let`s not get started on the things Scientology gets wrong. You could prove Christianity wrong. Show the Resurrection did not happen or show how its teachings don't change lives and lead to healtheir families and societies. Christianity is an incarnational and historical religion, there are lots of ways to attempt to prove its claims wrong. They have all been tried and Christianity continues to stand. You have been trying for a while and come up with nothing so you just claim it can't be proven wrong and list two religions that have been proven wrong. You should give up trying to prove it is wrong and instead perhaps ask yourself why it is right - you will have much better luck with that.

Quote:

They aren't based on anything real, they
can't be proven right or wrong. That's the
whole point of organized religion. You pick
a theology that has the consistency of
Jello, so it can never be nailed down.

Again you are not talking about Christianity here. It is real and historical. As far as theology you can go pick yourself up a Cathechism of the Catholic Church and you can see how solid our theology is. In fact I very highly recommend you picking up a Catechism, it will clear up a lot for you.

Quote:

And just before the Reformation WAS the
heyday of the Church.

Oh Bob, you mistake worldly power for somethign important. Underneath the fancy vestments of the Church at that time was a stinking mess. It only took one emotionally troubled monk to expose and speak to a corruption that people knew was there but were not addressing for the thing to unravel. It might have been the weakest time ever for Christianity. I don't care how many denominations of Christianity there are now, many of these groups brought needed reform to the Church and a rediscovering of the individual an personal relationship one can have with Christ. We can always come back together and many larger denominations are doing that. Look at the decree of Justification signed by the Catholics and Lutherans as an example. Division is a symptom of sin and as all Christians I pray grow in holiness we will grow together again.

Quote: FrGamble

Didn't you just give the example of things like the Earth being flat proven to be wrong and so people changed their mind? You're mistake is that you think people back then believed the earth was flat because everyone else was and for no other reason. You don't seem to grasp that the available evidence at the time led to that conclusion

Well, this is exactly what I've been saying about the mass delusions of crowds being no reinforcement for a false premise. There was actually PLENTY of evidence for the earth being round even in ancient times. All you had to do was climb a hill and watch a ship sail over the horizon. Or figure out why the earth's shadow on the moon has to be cast by a spherical (not just circular) object. In other words, the available evidence REFUTED the contention that the earth was flat, but the vast majority of people believed it was anyway.

So that the masses believe something doesn't mean diddly squat, and that includes religion, in general or any one specific religion. Not so long ago people thought infectious disease was caused by bad "humours." You can't even say that they didn't understand microbiology, so how could they have understood the truth--we knew about microorganisms by the early 17th century! The continuing persistence of mankind in believing something false even in the face of massive evidence to the contrary is the only thing that keeps religion alive.

Quote: FrGamble

Christianity unlike the other religions you mentioned has not been proven wrong.

Fundamentally none can be proven right
or wrong, that's why they last so long.
You can dissect them for flaws, but
the spiritual nature of them (yes, scientology
has a spiritual side) cannot be challenged
by science or reason. That makes them
bulletproof, and, of course, tax exempt.
It just doesn't make them real.

Quote:

Oh Bob, you mistake worldly power for somethign important.

It is important. It's what pays the priests
salaries and keeps the missions going.
Before the Reformation the Church ruled
absolutely. They ran whole countries and
controlled the written word. That's all
long gone, the religion is a splintered
shadow of it's former self. Your own
church is in dire need of money and
clergy, schools and parishes are closing
everywhere. No nuns to run the schools
and no money to keep them open.

Quote: stinkingliberal

There was actually PLENTY of evidence for the earth being round even in ancient times.

A Greek mathematician in Egypt managed to measure the circumference of the Earth using two sticks and a little trigonometry. He came very close to the actual figure, too. Of course, he had no way of knowing the Earth wasn't perfectly spherical, or in which ways it deviated.

If most people believed the Earth to be flat, it's because until recent times the vast majority of the population was illiterate and uneducated. And because information wasn't easily available anyway.

Quote: stinkingliberal

Well, this is exactly what I've been saying about the mass delusions of crowds being no reinforcement for a false premise. There was actually PLENTY of evidence for the earth being round even in ancient times.

Yep, this is why in my last post I mentioned that the example of the earth being round isn't the best one. Not as many people as we think actually believed the earth was flat. That is because mass delusions of huge crowds over time will always fail if there are not facts, experiences, and evidence to support them. You simply cannot have billions of people believing something that is not true for a long period of time. Such massive beliefs need constant reinforcement from attackers and to sustain the natural doubts that smart questioning people will have over time. Not to mention if such beliefs fly in the face of the powerful and elite, then you have even more pressure from attacks on the belief's origins, teachings, outright persecution, and the presentation of facts and evidence against such beliefs.

It is really quite laughable that anyone would be so blasé to think Christianity is just some type of mass delusion. I can't imagine how pessimistic you must be towards humanity to think that so many people can just fake a belief in something without evidence, facts, and experience sustaining them. Not to mention the constant attacks from a secular world.

Quote:

So that the masses believe something doesn't mean diddly squat, and that includes religion, in general or any one specific religion. Not so long ago people thought infectious disease was caused by bad "humours." You can't even say that they didn't understand microbiology, so how could they have understood the truth--we knew about microorganisms by the early 17th century! The continuing persistence of mankind in believing something false even in the face of massive evidence to the contrary is the only thing that keeps religion alive.

Again you are so wrong. Let me of course clarify something because I know Evenbob or someone will accuse me of it: I am not saying that just because lots of people believe something makes it true. However, it means a whole heck of a lot more than diddly squat. You also are comparing things like the lingering belief of bad "humors" with Christianity. I don't know anyone who believes in bad humors today and after the science of microbiology I am sure the numbers of people who believed such things were very small. So a mass of people believed for a relatively short time about humors. In dealing with Christianity you are talking about billions of people believing something for thousands of years.

The continuing persistence of mankind in finding all kinds of bad excuses and false illogical arguments even in the face of massive evidence to the contrary is the only thing that keeps atheism barely alive.