Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

Meaningless. There are hundreds of people,
thousands worldwide, who claim to have
been abducted by aliens. By your logic
they are all telling the truth, without a
shred of evidence to back them up. Ditto
with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
Your 'witnesses' for god are right in there
with those folks.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think we at first dismissed them out of hand. Eventually they dredged the Loch Ness and have sonared the life out of it and found nothing. Maybe instead of dismissing out of hand these billions of accounts for God you should at least explore a little bit. God is not something found in the bottom of the lake or in outer space, God is the reason for everything's existence and the source of ultimate hope for humanity. Wouldn't you want to give the chance of discovering friendship with God at least the same respect that people gave to the Loch Ness monster before just saying He doesn't exist before doing anything to see if these people are telling the truth?

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe instead of dismissing out of hand these billions of accounts for God you should at least explore a little bit.

Why do you keep addressing me like
I'm a college freshman? I've been
investigating god and religion since
long before you born, sonny. Since
about 1969 on. I used to stay at
a yoga retreat in Upper MI where
god and spirituality was all we talked
about.

I tried to be a Christian for over a year
in 1973-4. I moved to Calif in the mid
70's just to meet two of my spiritual
heroes, Jiddu Krishnamurti and Allen
Watts. I did attend some K talks in Ojai
when K was an old man. Watts passed
away before I could meet him.

I studied zen all thru the 80's and into
the 90's. I had books of koans I read
almost daily. I studied and used the I
Ching for years. I have most of what
Joseph Campbell wrote and recorded
about myth and spirituality, which is
a lot.

I've been studying god and religion
for almost 50 years, please stop treating
me like a neophyte. Somewhere in there
I realized I was an atheist. That's what
happens when you study enough, you
reach the logical conclusion that god
doesn't exist.

I even went thru my Carlos Constanada
phase, experiencing spirituality thru peyote.
I loved those books, even though they
were later found to be fiction. Beautifully
written and full of mystery.

Krishnamurti was all about listening to no
teacher, be it Buddha or Jesus or even himself.
He was about finding who you are on your
own path, being your own teacher.

Bob, that is quite a journey. Thanks for sharing. I think it explains a lot about the problems we are having understanding one another. You have been formed and taught very differently than myself. Just those quotes you shared are very telling. I imagine it is very hard to look at religion and God in a different way than you were formed. I don't mean to assume you have not thought about these things before, but I don't think you have thought about them in the way I am suggesting. I also know that you have been taught and have experienced some very incorrect notions about Christianity and I am simply trying to correct them. Your journey shows you have been very open and willing to try different things and ways to explore spirituality. There are other ways as well and all I am asking is that you have the same openness to Christ as you had for the other spiritual teachers in your life. Thanks again for sharing.

Quote: FrGamble

all I am asking is that you have the same openness to Christ .

Your problem is you think your path is the
only path, so you completely ignore all
the glaring flaws in your religion.

You have zero evidence that Jesus
is all the things you think he is, you
just take it on faith that it's true. Lots
of others think it's true and that's good
enough for you.

It's far from good enough for us on the
outside. To us it's just another myth,
something you'll never understand. To us
you've bought into the herd mentality
of an organized religion, and you spend
all of your spare time trying to justify that
to yourself by convincing others it's true.
Every time you get a convert, that means
it has to be true, it must be true.

That's why the Mormons demand their
young go on missions, you know. To spend
two years as missionaries. Every convert
they get is another notch in their belief
belt. To actually see the words of the
Book of Mormon convert people. It's
a very powerful thing.

Bob. Do you think K was atheist? I've wondered for a long time and I'm not sure either way.

Quote: Evenbob

Your problem is you think your path is the
only path, so you completely ignore all
the glaring flaws in your religion.

Pay attention. I have said that my path is not the only path. I believe it is the fullness of truth and the most sure path, but not the only one. God in His unconditional love and infinite mercy for humanity is well aware that through no fault of their own many people will never come to belief in Jesus Christ.

I also do not ignore the historical faults perpetrated in the name of my religion in the past and still today. I don't see how sin of human beings destroys the truth of a religion especially when there are far more examples of goodness and the beauty Christianity brings when it is lived without sin.

Quote:

You have zero evidence that Jesus
is all the things you think he is, you
just take it on faith that it's true. Lots
of others think it's true and that's good
enough for you.

Lots of others think it's true and have experienced the real presence of God like I have, but that is just evidence as to its truthfulness - that alone is not "good enough for me". I feel like I have been clear on this point many times. Another piece of evidence is the historical impact of Jesus, which makes it impossible for you or anyone to say He was just another myth like any other myth of those times. You like to attribute it to group think or some type of hypnosis or whatever else you like to tell yourself. The fact of the matter is the early Apostles saw the Risen Lord and gave their life to spread the Good News that He was the Son of God and had defeated death. They died with this truth on their lips and never once said it was all made up or just an unfulfilled hope. This you can't explain, nor can you explain the growth of the Church through the early centuries of persecution, or the many miracles attributed to Jesus.

You think Jesus is another myth and the religion that He founded an example of herd mentality, but you have no evidence of any other such myth having such an impact on the world with believers so convinced. You just keep repeating that He isn't any different. You are trying to convince yourself you are right, but to do so you have to ignore so many facts.

Quote: FrGamble

Lots of others think it's true.

This is really the crux of every Xtion's
argument. They all say it, FrG says it
all the time. It always comes back to
this, millions have and do believe
Jesus is the real thing and that's good
enough for me.

Reminds me of a line in Catch 22.
Yossarian says if everyone feels a
certain way, he'd be a fool to feel
any other way. It's the easy way out,
if you're wrong at least you have a
lot of company.

Quote: Evenbob

This is really the crux of every Xtion's
argument. They all say it, FrG says it
all the time.

Are you reading anything I am writing? It is far from the crux of any argument, it is more like a piece of evidence pointing towards the truth of something.

Quote: FrGamble

It is far from the crux of any argument, it is more like a piece of evidence pointing towards the truth of something.

You go back to it again and again
and again, in various ways. All Xtions
do. They think it's a solid piece of
evidence. How could all those millions
of people been wrong for so many
centuries.

When I point out they thought earth
was the center of the universe for far
longer, or that witches caused their
crops to fail, a good Xtion will just
wave that away, like it's a pesky fly
buzzing them. No, Jesus is for real,
this many people aren't wrong.

Till they are, of course.

Quote: Evenbob

When I point out they thought earth
was the center of the universe for far
longer, or that witches caused their
crops to fail, a good Xtion will just
wave that away, like it's a pesky fly
buzzing them.

They do the same when I ask them why they worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.