Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

I asked Ed the priest today and he said
when he was a priest they were taught
god not only demands worship, he doles
out punishment for those that don't
worship him.

I really don't need any more proof that Ed was unfairly and poorly formed as a priest. This is not his fault at all, but I imagine that he would still be a priest today if he had better formation and better mentors in his life. That is if he was truly called to the priesthood in the first place. I hate to tell you this but your friend Ed is a good guy but he is not at all an expert on any of these matters. In fact from what you have shared he is as wrongheaded as you are when it comes to understanding Catholic Christianity. Maybe that is why you guys get along so well.

Quote: Dalex64

Really? Children are evil, and they choose to be evil? "even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood"

Please remember the context in which the quote you picked out is mentioned. The point is to make it clear that Noah's community was totally depraved, not because of Original Sin, although that helped, but because of a total breakdown of culture into depravity.

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Yes, the author would be the best authority. Perhaps he should make an appearance and tell us what he meant.

That is why He gave us a Church.

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Too bad the OT was invented and written down in the millennia before Christ was born, and the NT wasn't written down until decades after his death.

Not exactly first hand testimony, written down immediately for accuracy, for either book.

You have to remember this was an oral communication time when strict history and news was not passed on by the written word. The literacy rate probably hovered around zero. This doesn't mean it was inaccurate or wrong, unless you want to throw out all ancient history.

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Not written by god, either.

Correct, inspired by God using human authors.

Quote: FrGamble

Moreover, the Bible is always shown to be right in this advice. Treat others as you would like to be treated, recognize that there is a God and something higher than yourself, treat others as equals, stay away from dangerous stuff, etc., etc.

Except all of this can be found in all
ethical traditions outside of the Bible.
Especially the so called 'golden rule'.
This is from Hindu sanskrit and dates
to the 8th or 9th century BC. Far far
older than anything in the Bible.

"By self-control and by making dharma (right conduct) your main focus, treat others as you would treat yourself."

Or this: "Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." – Thales (c. 624 BC – c. 546 BC)

Another: "Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you." – Isocrates (436–338 BC)

Every single moral lesson in the Bible
is found in many other places and a
lot of it predates the Bible. The people
who wrote the books of the Bible just
stole whatever they could to make their
jobs easier.

Quote: FrGamble

I really don't need any more proof that Ed was unfairly and poorly formed as a priest. This is not his fault at all, but I imagine that he would still be a priest today if he had better formation and better mentors in his life. That is if he was truly called to the priesthood in the first place. I hate to tell you this but your friend Ed is a good guy but he is not at all an expert on any of these matters. In fact from what you have shared he is as wrongheaded as you are when it comes to understanding Catholic Christianity. Maybe that is why you guys get along so well.

The priests who see the light and drop
out to lead normal lives are often made
fun of and disdained within the ranks
of the priests who stayed. A lot of the
ones he considered friends refused to
speak with him ever again after he left.
So forgiving, so Christian, so typical of
the kind of 'love' the Church spews out.

It's not that god is non existent and Ed
saw this, it's that he wasn't brain washed
well enough, that's your explanation. The
brain washing he got was inadequate,
according to you. He would say otherwise.

“God must be an egomaniac to command all humanity to worship Him and then send anyone to hell who doesn’t worship him enough." John Ferrer

Quote: Evenbob

The priests who see the light and drop
out to lead normal lives are often made
fun of and disdained within the ranks
of the priests who stayed.

This is absolutely not true and I resent you insinuating it. I believe Ed's experience if that is what he told you, but I assure you that it is not the case. I think you shared a video once with me where Ed mentions a priest reaching out to him. Of course, Ed for some reason is greatly offended by this.

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It's not that god is non existent and Ed
saw this, it's that he wasn't brain washed
well enough, that's your explanation.

No it is just that he is wrong about so many things.

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“God must be an egomaniac to command all humanity to worship Him and then send anyone to hell who doesn’t worship him enough." John Ferrer

It is a good thing that God doesn't do this.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you shared a video once with me where Ed mentions a priest reaching out to him. Of course, Ed for some reason is greatly offended by this.

He was offended by the priests condescending
attitude, not his reaching out.

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1It is a good thing that God doesn't do this.

Have you read the OT? That god, Jesus
dad (and Jesus too, if you believe that
nonsense), says in no uncertain terms
to worship him or else.

"God demands, seeks, and requests our worship because He deserves it, because it is the nature of a Christian to worship Him, and because our eternal destiny depends upon it." J. I. Packer

You can get life lessons out of any fictional story. The smurfs comes to mind.

Here are 21 more serious examples.
http://www.storypick.com/lessons-for-a-lifetime/

People can argue about the motivation and message of those works, like the great Gatsby, and the Thermian Argument applies - at the end of it all, you are discussing fictional events created by an author or authors.

Just like the Bible.

The point isn't how "right" you think the message is, the point is so much of the Bible is fiction and you try to pass it off as fact.

You are using those fictional facts to explain why things are the way that they are, and why we should behave a certain way.

So while you might elect to extract certain life lessons from the book, those life lessons are based on fictional events.

Just like Galaxy Quest.

The context of the quote about children is AFTER the flood, AFTER all the wickedness has been washed away. Genesis chapter 8.

But I won't continue with this line - it is a Thermian argument.

Quote: FrGamble

You have to remember this was an oral communication time when strict history and news was not passed on by the written word. The literacy rate probably hovered around zero. This doesn't mean it was inaccurate or wrong, unless you want to throw out all ancient history.

This is both innacurate and a logical fallacy.

One does not accept all of nor reject all of ancient history because it was handed down by an oral tradition.

Just because we may choose to believe that SOME history has been conveyed accurately does not mean that ALL history conveyed by oral tradition should be believed to be accurate.

The corollary is also true - just because we believe SOME oral history to be false does not mean that ALL oral history should be considered false.

Back to the matter at hand - written language in some for has existed for millennia. Egypt, right next door to Israel, is a prime example. Most of their ancient papyrus is gone, but some of their hieroglyphs remain.

After the Egyptians, the Romans had extensive records, during the time of their empire.

The scholarly beliefs about the old testament are that moses was a legend and not a real person, the books were written by different people over centuries, and the "oral traditions" they wrote down are not shared with their neighbors or with the rest of human civilization.

Surely if we all descended from Adam and Eve, and passed down our history through oral tradition, we would all have the same stories?

But no, the stories in the Bible are unique to that place and time.

You would have a hard time showing that the stories that were written into the Bible were passed as oral tradition before they were written down.

It's extremely hard to trust in any god that
was very active a few thousand years ago,
according to oral traditions, and is totally
inactive now. It's almost like he doesn't
exist at all.

The oral tradition for Jesus should be:
He had a very bad weekend, but recovered
nicely by Monday. No harm, no foul.