Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

Have you read the OT? That god, Jesus
dad (and Jesus too, if you believe that
nonsense), says in no uncertain terms
to worship him or else.

I just recently pointed out to you that this is not true.

Quote: Dalex64

One does not accept all of nor reject all of ancient history because it was handed down by an oral tradition.

Thank you for clarifying your position here.

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Just because we may choose to believe that SOME history has been conveyed accurately does not mean that ALL history conveyed by oral tradition should be believed to be accurate.

The corollary is also true - just because we believe SOME oral history to be false does not mean that ALL oral history should be considered false.

This is true. In the Bible we find a great source, in some cases the only source for the truth of the historical realities of that time. Much of this is backed up by archeological evidence and other historical sources. The NT is the best by far source we have to understand early or 2nd temple Judaism. Would another corollary of your argument be that if a text that claims to be historically true and has proven itself to be in almost all cases it should then we should also believe that most if not all of that oral tradition which it conveys to be true?

Quote: FrGamble

I just recently pointed out to you that this is not true.

I can't believe you say god does not
demand to be worshiped in the Bible.


"Worship is desired and demanded by the Lord. Especially for believers in Jesus Christ, worship is the expected way of life. Worship is not an option; it is a command." http://www.compellingtruth.org/God-demand-worship.html

Quote: FrGamble

Thank you for clarifying your position here.



This is true. In the Bible we find a great source, in some cases the only source for the truth of the historical realities of that time. Much of this is backed up by archeological evidence and other historical sources. The NT is the best by far source we have to understand early or 2nd temple Judaism. Would another corollary of your argument be that if a text that claims to be historically true and has proven itself to be in almost all cases it should then we should also believe that most if not all of that oral tradition which it conveys to be true?

Nope, not if there isn't any basis for confirming that the remaining statements are true. Especially if those 'almost all cases' includes at least one that is not true. It is a simple logical fallacy - some of A therefore all of or always A.

You are familiar with the "historical fiction" genera of writing? They are loaded with lots of true statements, and a bunch of made up stuff.

Again, the historically accurate parts of the Bible do not prove that the made up parts are real.

Also, much of the OT is not backed by archeogical evidence.

Quote: FrGamble

This is true. In the Bible we find a great source, in some cases the only source for the truth of the historical realities of that time.

the Bible is the book of last resort for ancient history. It's unreliable and quite inaccurate in many respects. Most scholar who even cite it, do so mostly on rather neutral items.

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Much of this is backed up by archeological evidence and other historical sources.

Very little of it is. The vast majority of the Bible is completely unconfirmed and unsupported.

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The NT is the best by far source we have to understand early or 2nd temple Judaism.

I'd sooner trust Roman and Greek sources of the era. By then the land of Judea wasn't an insular land perpetually trying unsuccessfully to fend off conquerors, but a Roman province under the Roman bureaucracy. This meant tons of outsiders coming and going and noticing things.

besides, the NT is entirely Christian propaganda, not intended even to be history. I'd take it as seriously as any other type of propaganda.

Quote: Evenbob

I can't believe you say god does not
demand to be worshiped in the Bible.

I went back and carefully reviewed my posts on this matter. What I have been consistently denying is that God somehow needs or worship or we will be punished and doomed. The Bible many times commands and instructs on the nature of worship to God. If you believe in God then obviously God deserves your worship. What is interesting and what you keep missing is often God tells the people to stop worshipping Him with unclean hearts and hands. He wants us to be loving and kind to each other far more than he desires our worship. Beck, Jesus once told His disciples to immediately stop your worship if you remember you have wronged you brother.


"Worship is desired and demanded by the Lord. Especially for believers in Jesus Christ, worship is the expected way of life. Worship is not an option; it is a command." http://www.compellingtruth.org/God-demand-worship.html

Quote: Dalex64

Nope, not if there isn't any basis for confirming that the remaining statements are true. Especially if those 'almost all cases' includes at least one that is not true. It is a simple logical fallacy - some of A therefore all of or always A.

You are familiar with the "historical fiction" genera of writing? They are loaded with lots of true statements, and a bunch of made up stuff.

Again, the historically accurate parts of the Bible do not prove that the made up parts are real.

Also, much of the OT is not backed by archeogical evidence.

I think you want to couch what I'm saying in extremes. I'm not going there and I hope you are not either. We all agree that some of A doesn't mean all of or none of A.

The OT has a huge amount of archeological evidence to back it up.

Quote: FrGamble

The OT has a huge amount of archeological evidence to back it up.

You're great at making blanket statements
like this with nothing to back it up. You always
say 'The evidence that Jesus rose from the
dead is has overwhelming historical evidence."
But you never produce any, so it's hard to take
you seriously.

Quote: FrGamble

The Bible many times commands and instructs on the nature of worship to God.

A god that demands worship, as yours does,
is obviously not a god. He's a fanciful faux
deity constructed from human faults and
emotions. Why you would worship such
an obvious myth only has one possible
reason; you were brainwashed into it at
an early age, like 99.9% of most Christians
were. If you could hear what your god sounds
like to an atheist who wasn't raised in a religion,
you would be astounded at how lame he
sounds.

The OT includes places that are real, and are backed by archeogical evidence. I think a few of the people in the OT may have been real, and there is archeogical evidence to support that.

The majority of the people and the majority of the events, there is no archeogical evidence.

I already mentioned how scholars don't think Moses was real or the stories about what Moses did

More examples, quotes from Wikipedia, references available there:

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Professor Finkelstein told the Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative on the Exodus, the Jews' wandering in Sinai or Joshua's conquest of Canaan.

On the alleged Temple of Solomon, Finkelstein said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.[33] Professor Yoni Mizrahi, an independent archaeologist, agreed with Israel Finkelstein.