Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Being a Jew in Palestine was pretty much as close to living in a vacuum as you could get especially in those times. .

You know who really resents what you're
implying here? The Jews. They hate it when
Christians paint them as ignorant clannish
hicks who knew nothing but their own cult
and kept to themselves. And that's only
one of the things they hate Christians for,
they have a long list.

They were not ignorant but they were fiercely protective of their own ways and had learned long ago the disaster that comes when they introduced the pagan gods of others into their own religion. Please don't put words in my mouth when they could be nothing further from the truth. Never forget that the Jewish people are my elder bothers and sisters in the faith.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you really think that these myths from India or wherever where in the minds of the Jewish authors of the OT and NT?

No. The Bible seems to be based mostly on Babylonian and Egyptian myths.

I tried to get a handle on the trinity thing, and it's simply not possible.

One explanation goes like this:

Jehovah, the father, is god, but he's not Jesus the son, nor the invisible nameless whatever

Jesus, the son, is god, but he's not Jehovah the father, nor the invisible nameless whatever

The invisible nameless whatever is god, but it is not Jehovah the father, nor Jesus the son.

Ah, but god should be Jehovah the father, Jesus the son, and the invisible nameless whatever, right? Otherwise you have three gods.

So if god is all these people and things, how can they not be each other? Is this some kind of Voltron-like god made up of lesser parts? If so, which is the famous, mythical, non-contingent part? Is each part omnipotent on their own? If not, how can either part be god? If so, how can infinite power be divided and not remain infinite?

Further, Jesus would not have existed until Mary gave birth to him. If he existed before, he wasn't a man. If he died, he no longer exists. if he died and resurrected and moved, body and all, into a heaven, he's some kind of immortal construct and not a man.

In other words: I'm done trying to decipher this particular irrationality.

Oh, and anyone telling me even Einstein is too unintelligent to understand this nonsense, will be met with appropriate derision.

Quote: Nareed

In other words: I'm done trying to decipher this particular irrationality.

It's meant to be irrational, it's a contrivance
to befuddle the riffraff into thinking the laity
is brilliant. They understand every aspect
of the trinity. It can't be understood because
it's meant to be an unsolvable puzzle. It's
meant to give mystery to the religion, but it's just
silly nonsense.

Edit: I just spent an hour reading about the
trinity. A Christian who claims to be an actual
rocket scientist says, it's a paradox and not
meant to be understood. That even trying
to put an explanation into words borders on
heresy. Just accept it's true. As I said, gobblygook
nonsense cooked up to trick the peanut
gallery.

Quote: Nareed

I tried to get a handle on the trinity thing, and it's simply not possible.

One explanation goes like this:

Jehovah, the father, is god, but he's not Jesus the son, nor the invisible nameless whatever

Jesus, the son, is god, but he's not Jehovah the father, nor the invisible nameless whatever

The invisible nameless whatever is god, but it is not Jehovah the father, nor Jesus the son.

Ah, but god should be Jehovah the father, Jesus the son, and the invisible nameless whatever, right? Otherwise you have three gods.

This part is true. They are three distinct persons all equally God. How they become one is in the complete gift of self to each other. This is so complete that the very essence of God is one. Maybe you could imagine three glasses filled with divinity and all three pouring themselves completely into the other so that the divinity is equally shared by all while there remains three individual different glasses.

Quote:

Further, Jesus would not have existed until Mary gave birth to him. If he existed before, he wasn't a man. If he died, he no longer exists. if he died and resurrected and moved, body and all, into a heaven, he's some kind of immortal construct and not a man.

The Word of God, Jesus or the 2nd person of the Most Holy Trinity has always existed. Remember our discussion of non-contingent eternal being. He became incarnate in the womb of Mary and took on humanity and this humanity continues now for all eternity. This is how our humanity has been redeemed. This is how we in our humanity are able to live forever in the joys of Heaven.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe you could imagine three glasses filled with divinity and all three pouring themselves completely into the other so that the divinity is equally shared by all while there remains three individual different glasses.

Wow, this gives me a headache, it's not
possible to even envision this because
it's impossible to achieve.

I talked to the ex priest today and asked
him to explain trinity. He says he can't
because in seminary they were told it's
a mystery that can't be explained. Some
even say it's heresy to try and explain it.

It's nonsense on purpose, to give the Church
a false aura of unexplainable beyond our
grasp mystery.

When St. Augustine was writing about the Trinity he had this experience of running across a little child digging a hole in the sand and putting water from the ocean into it. When Augustine asked him what he was doing he said he was trying to put the ocean into this little hole. When Augustine laughed and said it was impossible the little boy said to him, "So our your efforts to completely explain the nature of God."

It is a mystery, God is totally other and we cannot completely understand Him, especially in His inmost nature. However, the Trinity is clearly attested to in Scripture and is revealed to us as the nature of God. It was not some made up concept to confuse people.

Quote: FrGamble

It is a mystery, God is totally other and we cannot completely understand Him

How convenient. Yet you were created in the likeness
of him, it's so odd. Saying god is a mystery gets you
off the hook for ever having to explain any of gods
actions. Like not preventing the Holocaust. Just throw
up your arms and proclaim, it's a mystery.

Quote:

However, the Trinity is clearly attested to in Scripture and is revealed to us as the nature of God. It was not some made up concept to confuse people.

I saw the parts of the NT where they got
it, it's clear as mud. It can't be understood,
it's a mystery, it's a paradox, of course it was
invented to confuse the congregation.

Quote: Evenbob

How convenient. Yet you were created in the likeness
of him, it's so odd.

It's not odd at all if you think about it. God in His very nature is community and self giving love. We as human beings are also meant for community and to give ourselves to others in love. A man alone and isolated is a very unhappy one indeed.

Quote:

Like not preventing the Holocaust. Just throw
up your arms and proclaim, it's a mystery.

I don't see this as a great mystery. Men reject God and treat others as objects or worse and commit horrible sin, opps I mean horrible immoral actions. God will not take away your freedom to hate or to be ignorant, as you continue to prove.

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I saw the parts of the NT where they got
it, it's clear as mud.

I very much doubt you did or if you did you were looking in the wrong places or with your own twisted interpretation.

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It can't be understood,
it's a mystery, it's a paradox, of course it was
invented to confuse the congregation.

It is a mystery but it was not invented to confuse the congregation.