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Original Sin?
| October 31st, 2015 at 2:20:38 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Dalex, I don't think you participated in one of the pervious times this issue was brought up. Dum Diversas is not a document authorizing slavery. It might be best to think of it as a strange reverse emancipation proclamation. All those in armed rebellion, mostly the Muslim invaders of Europe, could once defeated pressed into service. It is not a racial type of slavery but a fairly common one that happened in wartime often in that era. These documents are very specific for one country and that time of dire straits in the midst of war and invasion. You can't argue with the documents I already quoted and have given to you. There is no doubt individual Catholics have practiced slavery, but the Church's consistent teaching on the issue in interpreting the Word of God has always been against racial slavery and the slave trade. It is worth noting that every anti-slavery movement began with Christians fighting against the practice. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| October 31st, 2015 at 8:33:50 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | It doesn't matter to me if it was racially motivated or not, it is still slavery, and those documents sanction slavery. Individual catholics, including popes, practiced slavery. Yes, I know that form of slavery was common for that time - that is the point - the church endorsed slavery for over 1500 years. Ok, they opposed racial slavery. They started talking out about 'unjust' slavery. They still believed, as an institution, that there was a 'just' form of slavery. the second point that has been attempted to be made - is the changing moral code of society and the church. A recent pope came out and in no uncertain terms said that ANY form of slavery was wrong. Clearly on this issue the position of society and the position of the catholic church has changed. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| November 1st, 2015 at 3:15:05 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Certainly the word slavery is an ugly one and how we all now rightly conceive of it is wrong in any form. However, we all still have the practice of locking people up who commit a crime and don't view that as wrong, yet it is a form of slavery. I don't think many of have any experience of indentured service, but the concept of someone who has no one to pay back a debt working for free until his debt is paid is not a foreign or immoral idea. So my guess is when this Pope mentioned that ANY form of slavery was wrong he was not referring to prison or the paying off of debts. He was thinking of how we all think of slavery today, which is racial slavery or sex slavery or any other way an innocent person is forcibly used and treated as less than human. This is the same type of slavery that that Church has been against for 2015 years. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| November 1st, 2015 at 4:36:33 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
You can't make sense of Christianity because it's a mass of irrational belief and moral contradictions. But it might help to keep these basics in mind: War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength. And never forget Big Brother Jesus is Watching You. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 1st, 2015 at 5:13:37 AM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
The kind of slavery practiced by the church and society was not prison, and it was not limited to the paying off of debts. It was the capture of conquered people, declaring them as and treating them as property, and treating their offspring as property. It wasn't limited to that, either. People were captured without their whole country being conquered. Also, what we think of today as slavery is not limited to racial slavery and sex slavery. The facts are clear - for over 1500 years the church participated in and endorsed slavery. Your attempts to redefine slavery does not change the core concept, of people and their decendants being held unwillingly in a state of perpetual servitiude. That fits the definition of slavery now, and it fit the definition of slavery then. These were innocent humans who were treated as less than human, and clearly the church has not been against that for 2015 years. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| November 1st, 2015 at 5:36:22 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | You are taking the example of a few Popes and a wartime document written to a specific country in desperation as your facts and then extrapolating and exaggerating that the Church has participated and endorsed slavery. You are ignoring the facts and not being fair or clear. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| November 1st, 2015 at 10:14:47 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
The Church didn't really endorse slavery as much as it didn't really oppose it. Why would they. There was no such thing as human rights, people would have thought you insane for suggesting it. Slavery was accepted everywhere as a way of life, actively opposing it would have made you very unpopular. Even Jesus didn't oppose it, why would he. It wasn't wrong in his day. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| November 1st, 2015 at 11:36:28 AM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
I have linked to this page before - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery - is there anything in particular that is unfair or inaccurate? You point to several documents to claim that the church was against slavery for its entire 2000 year history. I point to many examples of how it was not, even as late as 1866:
There are examples on that page throughout history of the church being for and against slavery in different forms at different times. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| November 1st, 2015 at 5:57:59 PM permalink | |
| boymimbo Member since: Mar 25, 2013 Threads: 5 Posts: 732 |
I have a complete understanding of the Big Bang Theory and I am an Christian. Most Christians now accept that the 6 days story of the creation is a fable created to explain the beginnings of the earth. That said, there is no disproof of a non-God as much as there is no proof of a God. I choose to believe. And get your definition of universe correct. This universe likely began at the point of the Big Bang, unless you buy into contraction / expansion of the same universe over and over again. |
| November 1st, 2015 at 6:03:28 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
It doesn't matter what I believe. The theory shows something expanded when the Big Bang happened. Not that something came into being. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |