Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that Jesus, a good Jew, and Paul and the other Apostles, all also Jews do not also say, "free all of your slaves" is a clear indication that the type of slavery they are addressing is of a different type.

I'm mostly staying out of this because
we already had this discussion. The
fact that Jesus saw nothing wrong with
certain types of people owning other people
and their children's children, speaks
volumes of how unwise Jesus really was.

I think the discussion so far has exactly shown that Jesus nor His followers believed anyone could own another person. His teachings are fairly clear on this as are St. Paul's and Timothy's.

Quote: FrGamble

I think the discussion so far has exactly shown that Jesus nor His followers believed anyone could own another person. .

"The servant (slave) who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."

Jesus on how to treat your slave.

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Quote: Evenbob

"The servant (slave) who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."

Jesus on how to treat your slave.

To be fair that was part of a larger parable designed to get men to submit to God.

The way I see it, Jesus had an opportunity as the Great Reformer to declare ownership of other human beings wrong. He didn't do that and I am not sure why. Clearly he spoke on how slaves should be treated (well) and as time goes on, the Roman Government reformed laws on how slaves are treated. Whether that is by Christian influence we don't really know.

Apologists will claim that slaves were treated better and that there are verses on how to treat slaves in the bible that makes it ok and like the slave trade to the Americas slave labor was seen as a necessity for economies to work.

Quote: boymimbo

Clearly he spoke on how slaves should be treated (well) and as time goes on, the Roman Government reformed laws on how slaves are treated. Whether that is by Christian influence we don't really know.

A far more important, and more immediate, influence was the lack of sources of new slaves. Jesus lived around the time of Augustus and Tiberius. The former famously said Rome should not seek any further conquests, ever, and fixed the borders of the Empire. The latter was not interested in conquest. Without wars of conquest, there were no more slaves coming into the Empire. Therefore the ones already there became more valuable assets.

It's truly horrible to speak of people this way, and of their treatment as a mere economic calculation. And that's what Jesus did not oppose.

There were some further conquests after Augustus, but few stuck around. Hadrian infamously abandoned territories in the Middle East and Arabia conquered by his predecessor, because these were very hard and expensive to defend. The one post-Augustus conquest which stayed in roman hands for any length of time was Britain.

Quote: boymimbo

To be fair that was part of a larger parable designed to get men to submit to God.

No, that parable coming from Luke's 12th chapter is actually about God serving us. If we are faithful and persevere than it will be God who has us recline at table and serve us. He takes the form of a slave as St. Paul says. Specifically the out of context quote that Evenbob used is the master's response to the servants who beat and mistreat one another. For the servant who does so when the master returns the punishment will be given out. I think this can show that God takes very seriously those who beat or treat another human being unjustly, be they a servant or not. He will not stand for that and will punish anyone severely who beats and uses another.

Quote:

Apologists will claim that slaves were treated better and that there are verses on how to treat slaves in the bible that makes it ok and like the slave trade to the Americas slave labor was seen as a necessity for economies to work.

No, any apologist worth his/her salt will continue to point out that slavery was naturally abhorrent to the Jewish people and that the NT is talking about a different type of slavery than we often think about. I think it was you yourself who earlier pointed out that Timothy explicitly rejects as evil doers who will not partake of the kingdom anyone who participates in the slave trade!?! It is never necessary for a people to be exploited or used as objects where their value becomes economic, material, or practical. That the Bible over and over again reminds the disciples of Jesus that there is not slave or free, male or female, Jew or Greek and that we should treat everyone as brother and sister shows that even the idea of indentured servitude is to be treated differently as a Christian.

I'll repeat something I've mentioned before:

During the abolition debates in the XIX Century, in Britain and America, both sides quoted the Bible in support of their position. This makes the Bible at best ambivalent on the issue of slavery. Which leads me to ask again how it can possibly be seen as a moral text, much less a guide to morality?

I want to add a definition as well. Chattel slavery is when a person is the legal property of another person. Race, class, station, rank, etc. are not considerations. The Bible doesn't condemn this, either. A Dacian taken into slavery in Rome for the rest of his days, whose children will also be slaves, is as much a slave as an African taken into slavery to South America, whose children will also be slaves.

Quote: FrGamble

No, that parable coming from Luke's 12th chapter is actually about God serving us. If we are faithful and persevere than it will be God who has us recline at table and serve us. He takes the form of a slave as St. Paul says. Specifically the out of context quote that Evenbob used is the master's response to the servants who beat and mistreat one another. For the servant who does so when the master returns the punishment will be given out. I think this can show that God takes very seriously those who beat or treat another human being unjustly, be they a servant or not. He will not stand for that and will punish anyone severely who beats and uses another.

It is about how we serve God. "The punishment for failure to make proper use of opportunities for service is severe. People are punished for failing to do right as well as for doing wrong. Ignorance can be blameworthy when there is the opportunity to know what is required. God makes His people’s duty plain (Rom. 1:20; 2:14, 15). Where is Jesus taking the image of slave?

Quote:

No, any apologist worth his/her salt will continue to point out that slavery was naturally abhorrent to the Jewish people and that the NT is talking about a different type of slavery than we often think about. I think it was you yourself who earlier pointed out that Timothy explicitly rejects as evil doers who will not partake of the kingdom anyone who participates in the slave trade!?! It is never necessary for a people to be exploited or used as objects were their value becomes economic, material, or practical. That the Bible over and over again reminds the disciples of Jesus that there is not slave or free, male or female, Jew or Greek and that we should treat everyone as brother and sister shows that even the idea of indentured servitude is to be treated differently as a Christian.

"Indentured servitude" = slavery, no matter how you call it. The bible states how slaves are to be treated (as well as you would treat others), yet the master still owns the slave and thus takes away their free will. If the slaves simply leaves, there is a punishment and it is until close to the end of Paul's letters that he suggests a different course for a slave. The Bible states that both slaves and their master belong to God.

Quote: boymimbo

It is about how we serve God. "The punishment for failure to make proper use of opportunities for service is severe. People are punished for failing to do right as well as for doing wrong. Ignorance can be blameworthy when there is the opportunity to know what is required. God makes His people’s duty plain (Rom. 1:20; 2:14, 15). Where is Jesus taking the image of slave?

Oceania? Eurasia? Eastasia? :)

I wish I could say this comparison was beaten to death, but the fact is it just keeps on happening.