Original Sin?

Quote: Dalex64

If a concept is based on a story, and the story isn't true, what foundation does the concept stand on?

The truthfulness of a story is not in itself important. Many fables carry a worthwhile moral even though the stories are patently false, so do many works of fiction.

The premises of the system or concept is of paramount importance. If the premises are false or wrong, then the result is evidently as wrong.

Is an action moral because it is good? Or is an action moral because some deity says it is?

Quote: Dalex64

If a concept is based on a story, and the story isn't true, what foundation does the concept stand on?

You're describing a myth. No real story,
but good concepts come from myths.
That's their point, in fact.

The Jesus story of his resurrection is
a myth, obviously. Taken as a myth,
it works fine. Believing it's real takes
it's power away, as is true for all
myths.

The myth I am talking about is Genesis, and the concept in that excerpt I linked to earlier from the book of Romans is original sin, which in turn was first mentioned by name in the 2nd century.

However, I think this goes a little beyond that. The way things are now, our lifespan, pain during childbirth, original sin - are because of the actions taken in a mythical story. It is the reason, the explaination, for why things are the way they are.

So, we have some effects - the ones I just listed, several of which are quite tangible. But we no longer have a cause - apparently as early as around the year 300 the bible started to be interpreted as allegorical.

Quote: Evenbob

The Jesus story of his resurrection is
a myth, obviously. Taken as a myth,
it works fine. Believing it's real takes
it's power away, as is true for all
myths.

What in the world are you talking about? The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is a historical truth. There would be no Christianity without it. Something happened to the early followers of Jesus three days after the crucifixion that so galvanized and energized the Apostles and disciples of Jesus that faith in the Resurrected Jesus, who had conquered sin and death for our salvation and was truly God's only begotten Son who had become one of us to save us, spread throughout the world. All of the Apostles besides John were martyred, the disciples and followers were persecuted and yet the faith spread. This was because of a myth, obviously not! True power becomes when something you would like to imagine is a myth is true. Why you can't see that is beyond me?

Quote: Dalex64

So, we have some effects - the ones I just listed, several of which are quite tangible. But we no longer have a cause - apparently as early as around the year 300 the bible started to be interpreted as allegorical.

Certain parts of the Bible were written as allegorical and the proper interpretation of such parts began way before the year 300. What I don't understand is why you are so sure that Adam and Eve, our first parents, were a myth?

Quote: Dalex64

But we no longer have a cause - apparently as early as around the year 300 the bible started to be interpreted as allegorical.

You pick and choose whatever suits your biases, or whatever you have to in order to stay relevant.

Quote: FrGamble

What in the world are you talking about? The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is a historical truth.

There is zero evidence Jesus rose from the
dead. There is zero evidence all the Jewish
saints came flying out of their tombs and
graves at the time of the resurrection and
walked and talked among the people.

Hearsay is not evidence. That you choose
to believe a myth really happened is a
problem you have to deal with. As myths
go, this one is pretty common. In the
history of myths, lots and lots of people
rose from the dead.

How many of these common myths have changed the world? None. The truth of Jesus Christ risen from the tomb has indeed changed everything. You are just going to have to deal with that.

Quote: FrGamble

Certain parts of the Bible were written as allegorical and the proper interpretation of such parts began way before the year 300. What I don't understand is why you are so sure that Adam and Eve, our first parents, were a myth?

At the time the book of Romans was written, what parts of the bible were believed to be literal truth, and which was believed to be an allegory?

With our understanding of the world now, which parts of the story of Genesis are literal truth, and which parts are allegory?

What justification was there then to believe the stories were literal truth, and what justification do you have now for labeling parts of the story as allegory and parts of it as factual?

You are dodging my questions.

If there was an Adam and Eve, did they really do the things that are attributed to them in Genesis?

Which parts of the story of Genesis are literal truth, and which parts are allegory?

Quote: FrGamble

What in the world are you talking about? The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is a historical truth. There would be no Christianity without it. Something happened to the early followers of Jesus three days after the crucifixion that so galvanized and energized the Apostles and disciples of Jesus that faith in the Resurrected Jesus, who had conquered sin and death for our salvation and was truly God's only begotten Son who had become one of us to save us, spread throughout the world. All of the Apostles besides John were martyred, the disciples and followers were persecuted and yet the faith spread. This was because of a myth, obviously not! True power becomes when something you would like to imagine is a myth is true. Why you can't see that is beyond me?

Rasputin was resurrected like 4 different times. Why no big to-do over him? In fact, a bit of Googling will find you hundreds of cases of being declared dead, sometimes even buried, and having the person reanimate. Many finished out 20+ years of the rest of their lives.

Quote: FrGamble

What I don't understand is why you are so sure that Adam and Eve, our first parents, were a myth?

Basic genetics. Though the Adam/Eve myth would sure explain most Walmart shoppers =p

Adam and Eve bore Cain and Able. 2 dudes. Cain kills Able who is replaced by Seth. Still two dudes. That won't work. So let's allow Adam to live to be ~950 years old and have daughters as well. That's the ticket. And the brothers and sisters just bang out a bunch of humanity, protected by the Holy Spirit from all of the ills of incest. All that work to populate the Earth, then the Notorious G.O.D. wipes 'em all out again in the Great Flood. Now Noah's sons and wives gotta ramp up the incest train again and do so until about the time of Moses, when His Holiness finally withdraws His holy protection and makes incest a no-no.

Most of us have working pharyngeal reflexes, making this one tough pill to swallow.


It's been eye opening, though, this thread's recent turn. It's basically the Miracle on Ice. That was nothing more than another in a long line of underdog vs superstar stories. But just a few ingredients here or there; the favorite vs underdog, the amateurs vs professionals, the Cold War, a few coaching decisions, and just another ordinary game turned into one of the biggest events in history. I've been in games even more amazing than this Miracle; I just didn't have the story. Why is Miracle such a "thing"? Because the observers made it so.

Also drawing parallels between Catholicism and the Leafs. We love them for the same reasons - because we do, and it feels good to do so. Yeah, they're both ridiculous. But we have faith. And that's all we need because that's all it is.