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April 6th, 2021 at 5:55:43 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
You're quote conflates guilt and shame and I see them as very different. Guilt can be a good thing and you can get rid of it: by resolving and working to stop doing whatever you were doing that made you feel guilty. Why do you think feeling guilty about doing something wrong or not doing something you should is a bad thing? Isn't that how we become better? Just don't beat yourself up or think poorly of yourself. In fact guilt is a sign of a healthy individual who wants to be better and doesn't let their weaknesses or struggle overcome them. Someone who knows their mistakes don't define them and that wants to always be better. I get nervous around anyone who says they never feel guilty, that is a sign something is wrong. I also feel really bad for people caught in the shame cycle and feel hopeless. Jesus is the answer for both types of people and all of us.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
April 6th, 2021 at 8:02:21 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You're quote conflates guilt and shame and I see them as very different. .


The people handing it out usually
see it VERY differently.

"Taken to the extreme, Catholic guilt can become an obsessive-compulsive disorder, also known as 'scrupulosity' (pathological guilt). Helping people who struggle with scrupulosity has become a mission of the Redemptorist Order."

I'm sure you're familiar with scrupulosity
and the major problems it causes in
peoples lives. The guilt they learn in
church haunts every aspect of their
lives. It's really quite insidious, but
then that's the intent. Guilt keeps
the pews filled. There is even
Scrupulous Anonymous to help people
who's lives the Catholic Church has
ruined.

Quote:
I get nervous around anyone who says they never feel guilty, that is a sign something is wrong.


So you think zen masters, who feel
no guilt, are wrong?

"Guilt is not even a basic human emotion, but a culturally imposed type of mental frustration."

We do not experience guilt as a natural human emotion,
it has to be taught to us. We have to be told what guilt is,
it has to be artificially instilled in us. Feeling guilty does
not come to us naturally. If you have ever spent any time
around young children, they have no idea what guilt is.
You have to teach it to them because it does not exist in
the real world. In Tibet there is no word in their language
for guilt. Guilt is a tool we have invented to control others.
And the Church uses it like a sledgehammer.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 7th, 2021 at 11:54:24 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Guilt is very natural human emotion and can be very healthy. It is a sign you are alive and striving to be better. Everyone experiences it and problems come when we try to deny it exists or run from it. It is much better to face it and learn from it in a loving and forgiving enviornment that accepts us where we are, but loves us to much to just keep us stagnant and not growing. Another unhealthy response to guilt is to obsess over it, as you rightly pointed out with scrupulosity. The Church helps people overcome scrupulosity and does not cause it.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
April 7th, 2021 at 2:58:01 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Guilt is very natural human emotion


No it's not. Guilt is not innate, we
are not born with it. It's a learned
trait.

"Guilt, like shame, is learned. People only feel guilty when they think they've done something wrong or violated a social norm."

And you have to be told you've done something wrong
or violated a social norm. When you raise a small child
you spend most of your time teaching them right from
wrong because they have no idea. To them it's fun to hurt
little sister or the puppy. They have to be told over and
over this is wrong and they should feel bad about it. This
is where guilt is born.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 7th, 2021 at 3:07:25 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
So is it unnatural and not healthy to tell people not to hurt people or animals?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
April 7th, 2021 at 9:25:46 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
So is it unnatural and not healthy to tell people not to hurt people or animals?


You love to twist things. You said guilt is a natural human emotion. I pointed out it is not natural, it has to be learned. And because guilt has to be taught it can be used as a tool to control people. Making them feel guilty is very powerful, especially if you make them depend on you to make them feel less guilty. It is no accident that Catholic guilt causes a pathological reaction in some people so that they have to be treated like it is a mental disorder. What other sect of the Christian religion has set aside a special Order to deal with the guilt it creates. Nobody ever talks about Methodist guilt or Episcopalian guilt. Only Catholic guilt.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 8th, 2021 at 5:49:40 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Even without being taught not to hurt other people or animals we feel guilty when we do so. You have to be taught to hate not to love. You might not like to feel guilty but it is natural. Like fear it is natural and helps us stay safe and healthy.
I forgot to mention it but you are also wrong about the Redemptorist order.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
April 8th, 2021 at 9:23:53 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You might not like to feel guilty but it is natural. .


You keep repeating the same thing over and over like that's going to make it true. Like I said, if you'd ever raised a small child you would know that you have to teach them everyday what's right and what's wrong behavior. They have no idea because it's not natural. Guilt and shame have to be taught. One of the jobs of preschool teachers and kindergarten teachers is to the weed out the kids who had lazy parents and raised bullies instead of kids who are ready for society. These bullies don't feel guilt for what they do because they have not been taught it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 8th, 2021 at 9:34:18 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
So are you trying to say that kids left to themselves are sociopaths that would pull the wings off butterflies, kick dogs, and kill people if given the chance? I think we have to do a lot to teach kids to hate and be mean. We do a good job doing that unfortunately.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
April 8th, 2021 at 11:07:43 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
So are you trying to say that kids left to themselves are sociopaths .


They will still learn some things by observation. For the most part they will be spoiled brats who think they're the center of the universe and we'll have no compunctions about doing what they want. Being rude, being bullies, having no empathy. What do they have to feel guilty about it, they can do no wrong because nobody's ever taught them otherwise. Prisons are full of such people.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
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